244 replies to this topic

[CygnusX7]

Seanamal, on 05 March 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Can we at least wait until we've actually got a chance to pay with this stuff before we decide that it's broken, over powered, or pay to win?

I see what you did there... haha

[Yokaiko]

Seanamal, on 05 March 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Can we at least wait until we've actually got a chance to pay with this stuff before we decide that it's broken, over powered, or pay to win?

Not paying real money for that, no.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Yokaiko, on 05 March 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Alright so where are the consumables on that list?

Consumables take module slots. so you have five implemented modules and 3 variants of 3 consumables.

Thats 14 different known items competing for the same 2-4 slots depending on mech chassis/variant. Which ones are you going to choose? A list of which will likely be expanded much further based on the un-implemented items.

Edited by Bubba Wilkins, 05 March 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Elwood Blues]

hammerreborn, on 05 March 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Coolant doesn't make your mech fire faster, so you can't "speed" kill anything using it. At best you avoid one shutdown in an entire match. And if someone's stupid enough to allow you to hit them 3 times in a row they deserve the death.

Coolant also doesn't allow heavy hitters to have even higher burst damage because it doesn't add anything to the burst! Jesus, get real arguments people. Higher sustained dps, sure, it'll have a slight boost, but it's not like this thing is allowing you to ultra ac/5 your ppcs.

Also, if you normally do 20 shots in a 5 minute match for 60 damage (6 ppc stalker), and with coolant you upped it to 21, guess what, you increased your total dps by a whopping .2 dps (assuming you are a perfect shot and that people live long enough to do that much damage.

There's also the entire argument that if you miss that magic bullet coolant salvo, you just basically threw away real money...so you have that going for you.

How does coolant not make you fire faster? That is exactly what it is meant for. Heat as a mechanic is a way of regulating DPS. Burst damage is a high amount of damage in a short amount of time. A mech can only take so much damage. The shorter the time in which that is delivered, the less damage that mech will be able to deliver in return before it dies. In this case, a 35% instant heat drop means that weapons are available to fire when they would otherwise shutdown the mech. I don't know how you calculate time, but being able to get off 3 big strikes in 9 seconds is a lot different than 3 big strikes in 20 or more seconds.

So, coolant flush does allow you to fire faster. Your burst damage increases. If the other mech is dead, you get to worry about cooling down after. Not to mention that the other mech did less damage to you in return because it didn't have the time to.

[Yokaiko]

Bubba Wilkins, on 05 March 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Consumables take module slots. so you have five implemented modules and 3 variants of 3 consumables.

Thats 14 different known items competing for the same 2-4 slots depending on mech chassis/variant. Which ones are you going to choose?

Why none of them if they don't get rid of the MC only. Ever.

[Bilbo]

Yokaiko, on 05 March 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Alright so where are the consumables on that list?

The consumables aren't on the list. His point is that for a good many people the modules that exist now and those to come are more attractive than the consumables that will be available. Like him, I have no reason to equip the consumables. The various sensor modules make much more sense for my builds.

[Calem]

The benefit-per-slot ratio is a bit disturbing: If you can only sacrifice one module slot to cooling (which is a realistic scenario in light of current and upcoming module selection), you're comparing -35% to -20%. Relative to each other, the MC coolant is +75% better than the best C-Bill option.

Sure, you can downplay the coolant's use, yet +75% remains +75%.

__

Edit: Someone suggested that you cannot get the -20% C-Bill Coolant alone/without stacking it on top of a basic -15% C-Bill Coolant.

Not sure; we'll have to look at the actual implementation, but if this is accurate, it would mean a ratio of -15% to -35% or 100:233 or that the MC coolant is 133% better (!) than the C-Bill option if you're only willing to sacrifice one module slot to coolant. Yikes.

Edited by Calem, 06 March 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

You're welcome! I think most players will enjoy the added tactics and things to do within game. The arty/air strikes play into the scouting role, since they require line of sight targeting until the battlegrid control module comes online.

This is just setting a disgusting precedent that invites future p2w abuse.

Cost isn't an issue, *yet*, but once you sneak this into the game, and people accept it, the floodgates are open, and the Genie cannot be put back into the bottle.

What is the point of a consumable if there's no decision to make? Why not just make it like ammo, and have it refill for free if it's going to be so cheap? Clearly, they want us to get comfy with the idea of using consumeables, so we won't cry foul when the introduce their consumeable energy overdrive module, +25% damage to all energy weapons for 20 seconds, later on down the line.

Soon enough, every single mech you own will have to have coolant, and then they'll introduce special AC ammo types, armor regen harjel, swarm LRMS, and so on. If the thought of this doesn't terrify you, then you don't have enough imagination.

And to think a week ago the only things we thought could kill the game would be a lack of content.

If you give them an inch, they take a mile.

Edited by QuantumButler, 05 March 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Kiserai]

For any given loadout, there are two possibilities:
1) Large coolant is suboptimal.
2) Large coolant is optimal.

If it's suboptimal, the cost structure is irrelevant because you won't want it in the first place.
If it's optimal, this is some degree of pay-to-win because you must spend cash or play at a disadvantage.

We can argue builds and what the degree is, but the dichotomy is unambiguous. This is a pay-to-win item, period.

I've already spent a fair amount on this game, which I'm comfortable with. Buying things is fine, and you guys need to eat too. On the other hand, any hint of pay-to-win seriously kills my enthusiasm. You just can't be taken seriously as a competitive game this way.

[hammerreborn]

Elwood Blues, on 05 March 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

How does coolant not make you fire faster? That is exactly what it is meant for. Heat as a mechanic is a way of regulating DPS. Burst damage is a high amount of damage in a short amount of time. A mech can only take so much damage. The shorter the time in which that is delivered, the less damage that mech will be able to deliver in return before it dies. In this case, a 35% instant heat drop means that weapons are available to fire when they would otherwise shutdown the mech. I don't know how you calculate time, but being able to get off 3 big strikes in 9 seconds is a lot different than 3 big strikes in 20 or more seconds.

So, coolant flush does allow you to fire faster. Your burst damage increases. If the other mech is dead, you get to worry about cooling down after. Not to mention that the other mech did less damage to you in return because it didn't have the time to.

If you're running a mech that takes 11 seconds to cool down to fire that last shot then I don't know what to tell you other than learn2mechlab

Edited by hammerreborn, 05 March 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[aptest]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

...25 per use....

@Brian,

Better version that costs money = P2W. This is fact no matter how you try to dispute it. Now, this is a small P2W... but as you've said later on, it's going to be heaped on top of other P2W elements like the airstrike thing below.

Honestly if you guys "get away with it" you'd just introduce more P2W into this game. Which will make me leave. I don't want to play a game where the guy with the bigger wallet gets to play on a field biased in his favor. So I think the game's best interest is served by this busyness venture being a failure.

or, how about you guys calling this BS off and we forget you ever brainstormed the idea of a MC-fueled-advantage?

[Elwood Blues]

hammerreborn, on 05 March 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

If you're running a mech that takes 11 seconds to cool down to fire that last shot then I don't know what to tell you other than learn2mechlab

There are several that people use right now. The PPC stalker is a big one. It is a very hot mech. You get 2 alpha strikes off with 6 PPCs without shutting down. With coolant, you will get 3 shots. That is 180 points of damage in 9 seconds WITHOUT shutting down and 240 points in 12 seconds with a shutdown after the last. You don't see a problem there? Maybe in the hands of an inexperienced player, it isn't a big deal. Put it in the hands of someone who knows how to target and knows how to play that PPC stalker without coolant flush and you have a recipe for abuse.

The same goes for Splat cats that can get quite hot. High burst damage builds are already out there. Some of them only kept from being completely obnoxious by heat. Remember that not every mech needs to be able to wipe the floor with all of the other team. If one mech can drop an enemy in short order, even if it shuts down after, the other team is still down that mech for the rest of the match.

[christophermx4]

It's pennies for crying out loud - come on guys. The C-Bill version is actually tactically superior...

[Cheetokun]

christophermx4, on 05 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

It's pennies for crying out loud - come on guys. The C-Bill version is actually tactically superior...

You're moving goalposts now.

[hammerreborn]

Elwood Blues, on 05 March 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

There are several that people use right now. The PPC stalker is a big one. It is a very hot mech. You get 2 alpha strikes off with 6 PPCs without shutting down. With coolant, you will get 3 shots. That is 180 points of damage in 9 seconds WITHOUT shutting down and 240 points in 12 seconds with a shutdown after the last. You don't see a problem there? Maybe in the hands of an inexperienced player, it isn't a big deal. Put it in the hands of someone who knows how to target and knows how to play that PPC stalker without coolant flush and you have a recipe for abuse.

The same goes for Splat cats that can get quite hot. High burst damage builds are already out there. Some of them only kept from being completely obnoxious by heat. Remember that not every mech needs to be able to wipe the floor with all of the other team. If one mech can drop an enemy in short order, even if it shuts down after, the other team is still down that mech for the rest of the match.

Math isn't your strong suit. At the bare minimum, if two shots shuts you down, that's a minimum of 45%. Lets even go with your heat dissapation of 11 seconds for 35%, or 3.2% a second. A shot every 3 seconds.

So every 3 seconds you dissipate 9.6% heat.

So back to your 6 ppc stalker, for you to overheat in two shots, you need to do 109.6% heat in two shots over 3s. So each salvo is 54.8% heat per salvo.

So lets say you hit O for that second shot so yuo dont autoshutdown and immediately pop your coolant to go to 109.6-35% = 74.6% - 9.6% (CD) = 65%

Fire again, 65% + 54.8% = 119.8% and you just killed yourself. (this is also completely barring a map like caustic valley).

You merely blow yourself up more awesomely with the 20% and super awesomely by shooting that third shot in the override state in the first place while at 109% and gotten the same damn result.

Edited by hammerreborn, 05 March 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[Dusty]

Bryan, why not make it so that if a person currently has an active Premium Account, they are able to purchase MC consumables at a CB price. There will come a time when people have finished accumulating the XP that they want with a Premium account. This will further incentivize players to keep their premium accounts going (like old fashion mmo subscription plans) thus giving you profit without feeling like they are further having their arms twisted to acquire the best consumables?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I'll just say this to the devs.

NEVER... and I can not be more clear than this. Never promise us something you will end up going back on... it's in magazines, it's in online interviews. It hurts your credibility.

We were told many things that got many of us excited for this product. 3 of which that got me personally interested and I'll list them here.

no 3rd person [forced first person view always]
no Coolant Flushing
Community Warfare

Two of the three things that got me interested, have been discussed as being put to the wayside in favor of implimenting undesired features, the third we haven't heard anything but rumors, and I'm starting to think it's not going to happen.

I've spent around 300+ USD on this product since "Open Beta" I'd consider that a hell of an investment. and I have garnered quite a bit of fun from it. I won't deny that. However I can assure you this, I'll be "voting with my wallet and my playtime" if either 3rd person OR coolant flush makes it into this game.

As it is, I'm having a hard time forcing myself to really get in and play because of the insanity that the forums brings up, It's hard to enjoy the game because I keep dwelling on what's coming, and I'm already having flashbacks to MW4 with the ERPPC/Gauss jumpsniping phract...

You guy's told us one thing, and are now doing another. Is this an ongoing trend by game devs? Look at Gearbox / Timegate with "Aliens Colonial Marines" look at "The WarZ"

PGI do you really want to be associated on a level that these products share? You have your prior words, and it's your job to honor them... if you do not, well, it will simply show us that you have no intention to bring the game we were promised, and I suppose Mechwarrior: Online will die, a forgotten legacy of what could have been.

[Dr Killinger]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Small Coolant Flush

• 1 module slot.
  
• 1 use per match.
  
• Consumed when used.
  
• 15% of total heat sink efficiency is cooled when used.
  
• 5,000 CB per use.
  
• Only one can be equipped.

Medium Coolant Flush

• 1 module slot.
  
• 1 use per match.
  
• Consumed when used.
  
• 20% of total heat sink efficiency is cooled when used.
  
• 7,500 CB per use.
  
• Only one can be equipped.

Large Coolant Flush

• 1 module slot.
  
• 1 use per match.
  
• Consumed when used.
  
• 35% of total heat sink efficiency is cooled when used.
  
• 25 per use.
  
• Only one can be equipped.
  
• Can't be equipped if Small or Medium Cooling flush are currently equipped.

We're still tuning the details, but this is currently in test. Paul is updating the CC post and will added the Arty/Air Strike details.

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply, but I'm afraid none of my concerns are alleviated.

In the end, I don't care how good any coolant modules are, the disturbing thing is that you've made separate modules that perform differently for MC and C-Bills. If the C-Bill option is better, no one will care, but if the MC option is better, it falls very, very squarely in the "pay to win" section.

If I can receive a direct advantage from a real-money purchase (which I could well with a level 3 coolant module), it's not fair. I can see no reason why the level 3 option isn't purchasable with C-Bills, which would alleviate all my concerns.

[Chou Senwan]

I don't like it.

How about this solution? If you equip an MC coolant pod, one random person on the enemy team gets a free coolant pod of the same amount.

[Akkuflex]

Do not introduce coolant flush alltogether. It will kill the balancing (6 ppc stalkers with flush are a example) and will be a neverending source of conflict in the community. Furthermore it will disturb the new player experiance even more: trail mechs against owned mechs with double heatsinks AND flush.

I will quit this game if this gets introduced and will refrain from playing as long as it is a feature.