244 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Fabe, on 05 March 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Don't develop your own opinion on something ,hate every thing that PGi does ,think the same as Jade kitsune

Oh yes, because I've hated everything that PGI has done, I totally didn't throw down 120 bucks in the hope that PGI would bring us an awesome Mechwarrior experience that would have good competition and not be a P2W fest.

It's cool man, I'll be off playing other stuff, as will many others, when this actually goes live.

[Pihoqahiak]

Jade Kitsune, on 05 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

It's cool man, I'll be off playing other stuff, as will many others, when this actually goes live.

IF it goes live.

[xhrit]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

We have.

Right now 1 MC = 2500 CB. All non-Hero mechs prices follow this model.

But for consumables we wanted ANY player to be able to use the CB version, at the current conversions it would have cost 62,500 for the Small Coolant flush. When average non-premium time winning are around 80K, we felt this punished the free player too much.

So instead of allowing free players to compete in the endgame, when they have filled up all their mech bays and bought all the mechs they want and upgraded all their pilot trees and bought all the modules, and have absolutely nothing more to spend their MC on, you are going to punish them by giving them a 15%-20%-33% competitive disadvantage effectiveness or slots, their choice.

This strikes me a profound mistake that will irreparably damage the value of your product, as not many will play in a competitive e-sport where paying users have an advantage over everyone else.

Monky, on 05 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

20% will get you from 100% to 80%, so you're still in cookoff/alpha overheat range.

What situation are you running through your head where shaving off 15% or 20% heat is better than 35% in any practical combat?

This exactly. The RMT consumables are 100% better, in every way. RMT consumables are more effective, or take up less space. I feel it is incredibly disingenuous to pass this off as anything but P2W. Paying players have a distinct and measurable in-game advantage over non paying players. It does not matter if it is 'only' a 15% advantage in effectiveness, or a 20%-30% advantage in slots, any advantage is an advantage.

benth, on 05 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Clearly your colleague believes that coolant flush invalidates strategy.

Unfortunately, money changes everything.

Edited by xhrit, 05 March 2013 - 08:57 PM.

[Fabe]

Jade Kitsune, on 05 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Oh yes, because I've hated everything that PGI has done, I totally didn't throw down 120 bucks in the hope that PGI would bring us an awesome Mechwarrior experience that would have good competition and not be a P2W fest.

It's cool man, I'll be off playing other stuff, as will many others, when this actually goes live.

Well just getting tired of see the 'gold' insult' every time people choose to not hate on the devs that all. although I might be going off any playing something else myself depending on how things go here and not just with the consumables.

[Corvus Antaka]

Monky, on 05 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

20% will get you from 100% to 80%, so you're still in cookoff/alpha overheat range.

What situation are you running through your head where shaving off 15% or 20% heat is better than 35% in any practical combat?

This. Any way you turn it, it gives people with real-world money an advantage over those without.

Given the current global wealth situation, I just don't see this as being appealing to a lot of people, PR wise it's terrible from what I've witnessed the last few days, it's completely overshadowed an awesome patch with lots of greatness. It is a real shame this news wasn't delayed so this patch could get some love.

[CrashieJ]

Jade Kitsune, on 05 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Oh yes, because I've hated everything that PGI has done, I totally didn't throw down 120 bucks in the hope that PGI would bring us an awesome Mechwarrior experience that would have good competition and not be a P2W fest.

It's cool man, I'll be off playing other stuff, as will many others, when this actually goes live.

as long as people can spam that PGI did something wrong, it will pave the way for better ideas to become clearer

[Critical Fumble]

Design/forward thinking/logic flaw here:

Lets say that the 15% extra heat or slot differences between CFs 2 and 3 are significant enough that it could swing a match (possible, I'd agree, but how many seconds of heat dissipation is that? [also ignoring that this mechanic is the BT equivalent of an ordinary FPS having a consumable that gives you an instant reload {dude, where's my immersion?}]). Where's the flaw (beyond the advantage)? The only thing you get for winning is an ego rub. That and salvage, but are ~20-40 thousand C-Bills really worth ~0.10$? Its like using gold ammo in random games in WoT, you might as well get premium time or a credit grind tank.

But then lets get to CW. Again saying that the MC version is an advantage - we have problems. If its valuable enough that its worth having, any mech that can mount it should if they actually want to compete in taking or holding a planet. Its no longer the silly minor P2W in random games where you play at a disadvantage because you chose not to buy it - but you're OK with it because its not too bad and they're funding the maintenance and development. Its now a pay to be competitive environment - you might as well have a subscription fee at that point rather than put your paying customers at a disadvantage to those who simply pay more.

And about that 62,500 C-Bills for the CF 3 not being fair for the free player. I'm going to call that one patently false. Bryan said himself that the average non-boosted winnings in a match is 80K, meaning that even if you fired one every match (which you likely would not) you would tread water more than half the time. Its perfectly fair, you spend real money to ease the grind, not to get an advantage. In a competitive situation, having the same item as both a real cash or significant, but manageable, game currency cost is at least reasonably fair for all parties.

The item then works as a "bait" item to get customers in (like sales in a department store) and then they may spend excess MC on vanity items. It also allows for actual choice in purchases - by having a significantly priced C-Bill consumable, the customer chooses to buy that for a tiny amount of real money, or buy premium time to afford it easier, or do the logic that ~120 of those consumables would be the same price as that shiny new Cicada hero with a C-bill boost and choose that instead.

[CarpetShark]

Please, please, please make the Air Strike and Artillery Barrage dependent upon having the Command Console installed. Otherwise, every single match is going to have these happening every single time the "cooldown timer" runs out.

And that seems like it might become a wee bit tedious.

[Galenit]

I am playing since open beta.
3 Chassis mastered now and i want more mechbays to go on.
But i dont give money until now and with this changes this would never happen,
its ok for me to play with 4 mechs from 3 chassis. And with p2w i will play less and less ....

I have some money for games in my budget this year, but pgi will see nothing of it with the change to p2win.

You want the coolant?
Then make it equal, like the arty idea:
mc= 50% heat dissipation over 20sec
cb 25% dissipation over 40 sec.
Both 1 use per game, 1 slot.
Taking 1 or 2 slots from 2-4 slots its not balanced, its a 50% difference, its pay to win!

[Deamhan]

The difference in mc and c-bill arty and air is irrelevant to the p2w of the mc flush.

Eg. You have a mech with 3 module slots. If you put an arty and air in the other two, the best benefit you can get out of the last slot is a mc flush module.

Stack the two of them?

You could but now you have to give up either the arty or air module to do so and quite frankly....

35% Flush
Artillery Strike
Air Strike

Is a superior loadout to

15% Flush
20% Flush
Artillery Strike

The cost of giving up an artillery strike or air strike is greater than the ability take your 35% flush as two smaller flushes instead of just one big one.

[Drenzul]

Problem is, as much as the P2W factor is a major factor here, increasing the alpha ability of heavy Alpha mechs is an issue.

Forget 6 PPC, 6 LPL..... thats 4-5 volleys before overheating now with a T3 coolant flush.

How about, instead of the flush actually dropping the heat, it doubles the heat dissipation for a short period (10 seconds), this would actually be more realistic (the cooler fluid still has to cool the equipment, its not instant) and would mean more of an advantage to sustained fire builds while still been useful to Alpha builds.

Also the MC version needs to have a lower total affect regardless of the number of flushes the CB version has. The extra module slot the CB version uses is a MUCH more major factor now decent modules are coming into play than the ability to do 2 smaller flushes. A 5-10% bonuses for the CB version would be fine and actually make them equally valid options. A single slot MC version would still be more effective than the single slot CB version this way.

[Sears]

Giving the tier 3 module a ridiculous Cbill price would quell people's rage. It doesn't have to be proportional to the other tiers. That way MC payers get their tier 3 for 25 and a cbill player can pay something like 150k, which is loads and if you wanted to use it every game it would be a loss, but it's still available.

Everyone would still probably use the 20%. But having options is always nice, for those who pay and for those who don't.

[Yokaiko]

Sears, on 06 March 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Giving the tier 3 module a ridiculous Cbill price would quell people's rage.

No giving it a reasonable price, like 35,000 would quell the rage, and accomplish the same effect more MC income (Note: Bryan mentioned that specifically) by virtue or premium time.

MC only, they can kiss my *** I'm out.

[CoreHunter]

I think my founder funding went to drugs.... at least that what it seems like every time i check for patch notes and updates.
first 3rd person veiw tries to slip in, Horrible ECM implimentation (still not giving them money over this), and now P2W consumables. I remeber them saying Never to 3rd person veiw and double heatsinks bad for game why? oh heat managment trivialized same reason coolant was revoked... till now. This is getting stupid all these patches are putting out is money grabs before this *(&%^ sinks.

[Jetfire]

I see what you guys are doing here and I can appreciate you need to eat too, I have tried to pay for a fair number of your grocery bills over the past few months, but I think this is not the right way to further monetize.

Hero Mechs are a good idea and can be balanced because they all use the same weapons systems. MC modules is like introducing MC only weapons systems. Could they be balanced, sure, but to what extent do you honestly think the line can be toed so that both perception and reality show MC options as side grades rather than upgrades? It is simply unnecessary.

Keep the modules you have, they sound good, even the coolant could have a place, though it could be done better I think with it costing tonnage and exploding.

Add Consumable Slots, these should really be separate from modules.

Offer MC and CB versions of each, both affordable.

Offer discounted MC packages, X amount that auto reloads between matches.

I would buy these for MC, many of us would, just to save time. I run premium time, I buy hero mechs, I buy lots of paint. I want to give you money, but the flavor of the current implementation is not thrilling. There are just better ways that, regardless of balance, are more resonant with a F2P not P2W model.

[ollo]

Without reading all opinions on this, i'd say: make every module buyable via CB and MC, there will be enough people that will be willing to pay the 25 cent or so on a coolant flush. Easy fix, no complaints about P2W, except if the cost is too high to be affordable in every match.

Keep in mind, P2W does not mean that paying customers will have a higher chance to win, it also mean that they will win more often. If the biggest coolant is affordable via an average game's income, it's basically P4C (pay for convenience), as it will only affect the speed you will gain your overall income.

But honestly, just scrap the idea of MC consumables if it's possible in your business plan because it's an even shittier version of R&R.

[Pihb]

I could care how much it costs. PGI said no coolant flushes ever. Stick to your word PGI.

[Yokaiko]

Pihb, on 06 March 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I could care how much it costs. PGI said no coolant flushes ever. Stick to your word PGI.

They said no wallet warriors ever as well.

We see how that went.

[Sifright]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

They said no wallet warriors ever as well.

We see how that went.

Debit cards online
Credit Cards online
Cash system online

all pay 2 win systems nominal.

[Yokaiko]

Sifright, on 06 March 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Debit cards online
Credit Cards online
Cash system online

all pay 2 win systems nominal.

All systems focused on other games (as soon as I get them back on my drive)