103 replies to this topic

[Vasces Diablo]

So there has been a lot of discussion around this topic, and it's clear people have quite a few different ideas on what P2W means. Here's how I see it:

1. Improved items that are available for cash only (ie "Gold Ammo")
2. Chassis/vehicles that are superior for cash only
3. Anything that while technically purchasable with in game currency, are so expensive, that they are realistically only available via real world cash.

Currently, only 4 things in MWO are cash only: premium time, visual customization, garage spaces, and hero mechs.

Garage spaces are handy. You can play without buying one, but it's a annoying. They don't grant any in game advantage so I don't see them as P2W.
Hero Mechs have the potential, however, none that have been released yet are clearly better than the standards. These warrant some discussion, but again, it's not like "all atlases are cash only" so I don't feel this is pay to win.

Consumables: no detail on implementation or cost yet, so it's ripe for speculation. What we do know however, is that all will be available for cbills as well as cash. Assuming that the cbill cost isn't prohibitively expensive, this is not P2W.

I understand the concern over "consumables for cash". People are scared it will be gold ammo. But anyone can buy these without spending cash. If you do feel they are P2W, let me ask you this:

If I spend MC to buy premium time, which results I'm extra cBills, that I use to buy consumables, is that P2W?

Edit: I'm not looking to call anyone out here, just want a reasonable and thoughtful discussion. Silly me, right?
Edit 2: yes, I know some info has now surfaced, wasn't the case when I wrote this. The purpose if this is to discuss the concept of Pay 2 Win.

Edited by Vasces Diablo, 05 March 2013 - 07:06 PM.

[Doc Holliday]

Vasces Diablo, on 05 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

If I spend MC to buy premium time, which results I'm extra cBills, that I use to buy consumables, is that P2W?

It certainly can be. Gold ammo in WoT is absolutely p2w, even though it can be purchased with in-game currency. Why? Because the in-game currency cost is so high that no one can afford to use gold ammo all the time without spending real money. Either you'll be buying premium tanks to make money faster, or you'll be buying premium time to make money faster, or you'll simply be buying gold ammo with real money.

Same thing applies to consumables in MWO. In order for it to NOT be P2W, you'd have to be able to buy one of each type of consumable you'd use every match, of the highest tier, and still have money left over from your match winnings to save up money to buy new mechs and equipment. This means, at the most, top tier consumables could cost around 10-15K. Some mechs have 3 module slots (four if mastered) and we already know of at least 3 different types of consumables. That's 3 different ones you'd have to be able to replace every match. Some matches you don't get more than 25-30K.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 05 March 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[v4skunk]

Pay to win does not exist on this game.

[Doc Holliday]

v4skunk, on 05 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Pay to win does not exist on this game.

It almost certainly will after today's patch.

[urmamasllama]

Vasces Diablo, on 05 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Consumables: no detail on implementation or cost yet, so it's ripe for speculation. What we do know however, is that all will be available for cbills as well as cash. Assuming that the cbill cost isn't prohibitively expensive, this is not P2W.

I understand the concern over "consumables for cash". People are scared it will be gold ammo. But anyone can buy these without spending cash.

incorrect there are details posted on how it will work tier one and two can ONLY be bought with cbills while tier three can ONLY be bought with MC a clear distinction that is the root of all the uproar
the cbill and MC variants of the consumables are separate and NOT equal. i have no problem with consumables IF the mc and cbill options are identical.

Quote

[color=#959595]let me ask you this:[/color]

[color=#959595]If I spend MC to buy premium time, which results I'm extra cBills, that I use to buy consumables, is that P2W?[/color]

no because premium does not provide you with any ingame content you wouldn't otherwise have. it only makes aquiring things quicker than normal. P2W != convenience
P2W is content that directly impacts gameplay that can only be acquired with real money

Edited by urmamasllama, 05 March 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Broceratops]

looking from the f2player perspective, the most crippling thing for me would be the fact that you can only have 4 mechbays. that pretty much means you can only master 1 mech unless you want to **** away tens of millions of cbills.

[CyboNinja]

Here is the best part! You're not actually paying to win anything, its still only a beta.

[Josef Nader]

If two players of equal skill, one paying and one non-paying are using equal equipment save for the paid item (vs any non-paid counterpart), does the paying player have an upper hand?

If the answer to the question is yes, then it's pay to win in my book.

TF2 != pay to win, as the only things you can acquire in that game with money that you can't acquire for free are things that have absolutely no effect on gameplay (unless your enemy is going to be intimidated by your named weapon and green colored hat).

WoT == Pay to Win, as paying players can acquire items in that game that unpaid players cannot get, and out of two players of equal skill with equal equipment except for the paid items, the paying player has a noticeable advantage.

[Matt Minus]

Pay to Win is what poors call it when a game is anything but 100% free.

[Josef Nader]

Matt Minus, on 05 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Pay to Win is what poors call it when a game is anything but 100% free.

When I was growing up, you paid for games once. You went down to the store, spent your $60, and got a complete (hopefully, there were more than a few incomplete titles sold, but not so they could nickle and dime us for DLC...) title that didn't get any bigger or smaller based on how much you paid. Everyone paid the same entry fee, and everyone had the same footing. It was like going down to the store and buying a chessboard. No matter how much you paid, you're all getting access to the same rules, the same constraints, and the same paths to winning. You didn't get any competitive-affecting toys because you dropped $150 on the super special edition box set marble-and-mahogany chessboard. Being worse than someone at the game meant you lost. That was it. If they knew the game better than you did, they won. That's how balancing is supposed to work. If you go up against a chess grandmaster, he's probably going to thrash you because he's devoted a lot of his time and effort into being good at chess.

This sort of nonsense is like letting someone pay for gold pawns who can move double the number of spaces as someone else. Sure, a chess grandmaster might still be able to beat you, but it's certainly helped you narrow the gap in skill via money. That is, of course, assuming the chess grandmaster hasn't paid for gold pawns of his own which he can then use to thrash you even harder.

MEANWHILE, the company making the chessboards fills up a big pool full of money and rolls around in it like Scrooge McDuck because the stupid ***** above are playing a rousing game of "whoever throws more money into our pockets wins!" with the chessboard manufacturer.

Edited by Josef Nader, 05 March 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[Vasces Diablo]

urmamasllama, on 05 March 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

incorrect there are details posted on how it will work tier one and two can ONLY be bought with cbills while tier three can ONLY be bought with MC a clear distinction that is the root of all the uproar
the cbill and MC variants of the consumables are separate and NOT equal. i have no problem with consumables IF the mc and cbill options are identical

Yeah, saw that post shortly after posting this. I'm less than thrilled about the tier 3 cash only one. I guess we'll see how much that extra percent matters, but it certainly qualifies for criteria 1 in my definition. Interestingly, their reasoning was to avoid what I see as criteria 3 (cbill equivalent too expensive).

We'll have to see how the damage vs speed air strike/artillery works as well. In my mind the faster (MC) version is more useful. I'll hold my opinion till I see the results in game, but I'm troubled by this.

[Drake Syn]

Is anyone else starting to get irritated about the references to gold ammo? Because, near as I can tell, World of Tanks is still one of the best non-WoW MMOs being played right now, and it's frustrating for people to use gold ammo as some sort of reference as to how to kill a game. That's like trying to equate a paid subscription game to a Free to Play, and complaining about quality. It's a uneven comparison, and proves nothing. If the actual WoT community had up and abandoned the game when premium ammo came out, you might, maybe have had an argument, but now it just makes everyone who uses that argument look like whiners. It's going to come out, people are going to use them. I've read the post about how they are theoretically going to work, and it will break nothing. And I will also go back to a point I made in the March timeline discussion; The same reason that gold ammo didn't break WoT may be exactly why MWO is doing it. Maybe the first April patch, or hell, for all we know, the March 19th patch, may bring community warfare. If that happens, none of the consumables will matter, because people who still refuse to give money to this wonderful design team will be able to earn MC. /takes a deep breath. Sorry for the rant, I'm just starting to get frustrated about this argument. It's not going to ruin the game.

[Vasces Diablo]

Matt Minus, on 05 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Pay to Win is what poors call it when a game is anything but 100% free.

This is the kind of post I don't want in my thread. Be gone troll.

[Oni Ralas]

Solution:

Put aside 15 bucks a month that you would normally spend on a sub. Buy what you want with it in MC - if you dig consumables, go for it. Paint? Be my guest. Feeling a bit light this month? Horde the MC for next month.

Nothing thus far is P2W. When someone says P2W, I'm assuming it's a bright n' shiney I-Win button with a 30' gold statue of me fipping off the players. I haven't found that yet...although I would pay to have a gold mech come to think of it...

[Matt Minus]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

When I was growing up, you paid for games once. You went down to the store, spent your $60, and got a complete (hopefully, there were more than a few incomplete titles sold, but not so they could nickle and dime us for DLC...) title that didn't get any bigger or smaller based on how much you paid. Everyone paid the same entry fee, and everyone had the same footing.

Those games were all pay2win beause you had to pay $60 to get them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some poors don't have $60 so thats not right or fair and is p2w!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


By which I mean referencing a completely different model of game develpoment has nothing to do with this game. The fact of the matter is that many games had to g f2p to get folks to even give them a look, and those games have to generate revenue. A game is not p2w just because they do, in fact, have a model for generating revenue.

[Drake Syn]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

When I was growing up, you paid for games once. You went down to the store, spent your $60, and got a complete (hopefully, there were more than a few incomplete titles sold, but not so they could nickle and dime us for DLC...) title that didn't get any bigger or smaller based on how much you paid. Everyone paid the same entry fee, and everyone had the same footing. It was like going down to the store and buying a chessboard. No matter how much you paid, you're all getting access to the same rules, the same constraints, and the same paths to winning. You didn't get any competitive-affecting toys because you dropped $150 on the super special edition box set marble-and-mahogany chessboard. Being worse than someone at the game meant you lost. That was it. If they knew the game better than you did, they won. That's how balancing is supposed to work. If you go up against a chess grandmaster, he's probably going to thrash you because he's devoted a lot of his time and effort into being good at chess.

This sort of nonsense is like letting someone pay for gold pawns who can move double the number of spaces as someone else. Sure, a chess grandmaster might still be able to beat you, but it's certainly helped you narrow the gap in skill via money. That is, of course, assuming the chess grandmaster hasn't paid for gold pawns of his own which he can then use to thrash you even harder.

MEANWHILE, the company making the chessboards fills up a big pool full of money and rolls around in it like Scrooge McDuck because the stupid ***** above are playing a rousing game of "whoever throws more money into our pockets wins!" with the chessboard manufacturer.

Ahem, and when you bought said game, nothing EVER changed about it. So what you are asking for, is for them to complete the game, as is, never let us touch it until it's done, charge us once and forget the game ever existed. In ~my~ day, when a game was online, and being constantly updated, and the dev staff paid attention to the game until no one wanted to play it anymore, and we as a community paid them every frakking month to do so. So, frankly, the fact that people like me, who normally don't pay for frivolties, to even be allowed to play such an awesome game, has literally nothing to complain about. It's not going to unhinge the game, and since the community is the only way to have even remotely competitive play currently, they can regulate whether or not you even get to use them in their ranked matches. So please, stop assuming this will end the game. If you don't want to deal with it, stop playing and let those of us who appreciate these people's fine efforts play in peace.

Edited by Drake Syn, 05 March 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[Voridan Atreides]

Doc Holliday, on 05 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

It almost certainly will after today's patch.

We don't even know what the prices are so how can you say that?

[Pihoqahiak]

Cybo, on 05 March 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Here is the best part! You're not actually paying to win anything, its still only a beta.

Many players are looking ahead when it comes to this sort of thing. Especially when deciding whether this will remain (or grow into) a game that they decide to invest time and/or money into. Many players are wanting a healthy competitive game from MW:O. Pay to win model games do not provide a good basis for competitive gaming, which is part of why games like League of Legends become successful e-sports, as it doesn't have anything you can buy to gain an advantage in it's competitive play. Turning to pay to win strategies in a PvP based game generally means the game mechanics don't stand well enough on their own and they resort to feeding on player's desire to purchase an advantage within the game play to win more often. Yes, those things won't win them every game, but it does provide them an advantage none the less, increasing how often they win overall.

Edited by Pihoqahiak, 05 March 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Drake Syn]

Pihoqahiak, on 05 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Many players are looking ahead when it comes to this sort of thing. Especially when deciding whether this will remain (or grow into) a game that they decide to invest time and/or money into. Many players are wanting a healthy competitive game from MW:O. Pay to win model games do not provide a good basis for competitive gaming, which is part of why games like League of Legends become successful e-sports, as it doesn't have anything you can buy to gain an advantage in it's competitive play. Turning to pay to win strategies in a PvP based game generally means the game mechanics don't stand well enough on their own and they resort to feeding on players desire to purchase an advantage within the game play to win more often. Yes, those things won't win them every game, but it does provide them an advantage none the less, increasing how often they win overall.

And that is perfectly fair, but I think this much dispute over the issue, not just before the consumables are released, but before the game even has a competitive mode, is just the internet doing what it's best at. Whining.

[Penance]

PAY 2 WIN = NY YANKEE BASEBALL

not recently, but since 1996.

Edited by Penance, 05 March 2013 - 12:12 PM.