103 replies to this topic

[Josef Nader]

Bubba Wilkins, on 05 March 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

This point of view ignores the fact that you will have to give up all current and future modules for your strictly worse case MC loadout. Bottom line is we now have 14 items competing for 2-4 slots in our builds. Sure, you might get a slightly better MC flush, but what are you going to give up for it to free that slot up in the first place? Those other modules are far from useless and in many cases clearly a better use of the slot.

Again, one player has 4 free modules. One has 3 free modules and a T3 airstrike, or T3 arty. It's true that we don't know how effective these things are, but they're trying to get people to pay real money to get these things. If they aren't satisfying to use, nobody would pay for them and the whole scheme is pointless.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Again, one player has 4 free modules. One has 3 free modules and a T3 airstrike, or T3 arty. It's true that we don't know how effective these things are, but they're trying to get people to pay real money to get these things. If they aren't satisfying to use, nobody would pay for them and the whole scheme is pointless.

The T2 Art and Airstrike provide more damage in exchange for a slightly slower delivery. Thus, the T3 versions are not clearly superior thus rendering that argument invalid.

And just in case some of you missed it buried in the other thread:

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

No. Arty and Air Strikes work differently.

Paul is going to post the details shortly.

Here's some highlights.

• There are cooldown timers. Cooldown timers make sure there is a space between shots and prevents a team coordinating a single massive strike.
  
• CB Version does more damage but is slower to target. 10,000 CB
  
• Version does less damage but is faster to target. 25
  
• Only one of each can be equipped.
  
• Only one user per match.
  
• Consumed when used.

Edited by Bubba Wilkins, 05 March 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Drake Syn]

Tarman, on 05 March 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Oh there are deffo some Queen Llamas up in this beaaaa. Some folks live for the forums themselves even more than the reason the forum was created. But there are also some LALALA IM NOT LISTENING folks as well. Fools appear where there are human beings. I just want my giant robots to not suck because really these are some sweet sweet giant robots. I'll dance all around you in a Spider 5K shooting into the sky to express my joy at being proved completely wrong.

Let us stick with cautious yet optimistic, then, ne? For if things go well, I will join the ammodumping celebration. Lol.

[Josef Nader]

Bubba Wilkins, on 05 March 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

The T2 Art and Airstrike provide more damage in exchange for a slightly slower delivery. Thus, the T3 versions are not clearly superior thus rendering that argument invalid.

They're still inferior, as the enemy has more time to respond to and move out of the way to minimize their effectiveness with the lower tiers. Assuming equivalent skills, the T3 is still more effective than the T2.

[Heeden]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

It's a matter of playstyle, but the YLW can mount an AC20, something that no Centurion can do. If you favor brawling with ballistics in centurions, the YLW is the champion there. Again, though, it's tough to compare these things because you can do things as a free player to mitigate the YLWs advantage. I don't -like- Hero Mechs, but I don't consider them pay to win because you're still using the same weapons and hitboxes (minus odd examples like the YLW's ability to mount the AC20. Free players can still get an AC20, but not on a Centurion. Do I like it? No. Is it pay to win? Not really).

Here's the difference between Hero Mechs and module slots, and why this is a gross breach of P2W in my eyes. Let's take two players with identical mechs (say, two Atlas D-DCs) with identical loadouts and identical skills (I realize this is nigh impossible, but you have to isolate variables to get relevant data). The only difference between the Free player and the Paid player is their module loadout.

Free Player:
T2 Airstrike
T2 Artillery
T2 Cooling
Module

Paid Player:
T3 Airstrike
T3 Artillery
T3 Cooling
Module

Now, we don't have any solid numbers on Airstrikes or Arty yet, but it IS established that T1 + T2 = T3. Roughly, this equates to something around 33% + 66% = 100%, with the T3 module being 100% effectiveness. This means that a free player's modules are functioning 33% less effectively than a paid player's consumables, and this is a significant statistical difference.

Let's use the hard numbers to illustrate this:

35% cooling = maximum cooling effectiveness of the consumable = 100%
25% cooling = T2 cooling effectiveness = 25 / 35 = 0.71% of total effectiveness possible. Close to my estimated 66%.
10% cooling = T1 cooling effectiveness = 10 / 35 = 0.29% of total effectiveness possible. Close to my estimated 33%

Assuming this extrapolates onto artillery and air strikes, like they've said they will, this equates to a significant difference in effectiveness between the consumables. Assuming both players have equal skill in using their consumables, the paid player has a significant advantage in consumable effectiveness compared to a free player, and this is a serious problem in my eyes.

The artillery/airstrikes should probably be tier-1 and tier-2, or C-Bill and MC as it isn't clear which one is superior.

Assuming the Atlai have 25 dhs, that's a total capacity of (30+(10x2.0)+(15x1.4))x120% = 85. The medium flush removes 17 heat, the large flush removes 30. The paying gives an advantage of 13 heat per match...

However the free player has the option to take a second, smaller flush. Now both can remove the same amount of heat, with the free player having the option to do so in two stages. The paying player has a spare module slot but has to flush all their coolant in one go.

The paying player has support ordinance that locks on quickly, the free player has support ordinance that does more damage.

The only true advantage I can see is if the free player only takes one flush. If both are taken I see it as a possible side-grade to 1 large plus a module. Certainly no more pay-to-win than the hero mechs.

[Roughneck45]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

They're still inferior, as the enemy has more time to respond to and move out of the way to minimize their effectiveness with the lower tiers. Assuming equivalent skills, the T3 is still more effective than the T2.

Its just faster.

If anything, the c-bill variant is going to take more skill to use and give a greater payoff.

[Vasces Diablo]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

They're still inferior, as the enemy has more time to respond to and move out of the way to minimize their effectiveness with the lower tiers. Assuming equivalent skills, the T3 is still more effective than the T2.

Without known details, they look to be situational.

More damage but slower is great hitting the known map hot spots. (Ie frozen city ridge, pop tarts in the caustic cauldron) or to be used as an area denial weapon. Faster by less damage is more versatile. (Ie, a line if mechs is coming at me, time to hit them)

Myself, I'm good with slower one. A lot will come down to if we get an "air strike/artillery inbound warning".

[Josef Nader]

Heeden, on 05 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

The artillery/airstrikes should probably be tier-1 and tier-2, or C-Bill and MC as it isn't clear which one is superior.

Assuming the Atlai have 25 dhs, that's a total capacity of (30+(10x2.0)+(15x1.4))x120% = 85. The medium flush removes 17 heat, the large flush removes 30. The paying gives an advantage of 13 heat per match...

However the free player has the option to take a second, smaller flush. Now both can remove the same amount of heat, with the free player having the option to do so in two stages. The paying player has a spare module slot but has to flush all their coolant in one go.

The paying player has support ordinance that locks on quickly, the free player has support ordinance that does more damage.

The only true advantage I can see is if the free player only takes one flush. If both are taken I see it as a possible side-grade to 1 large plus a module. Certainly no more pay-to-win than the hero mechs.

Again, for 100% effectiveness the free player brings, the paying player brings an ADDITIONAL 100% effective module. For everyone 1 module slot the paid player fills, the free player has to fill 2 to get the same result.

So, the free player wants the same cooling as a paid player. He brings Tier 1 and Tier 2. The paid player gets Tier 3 AND a module, or another consumable. This is where the major power gap comes from, and this is the source of the P2W arguments.

[Heeden]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Again, for 100% effectiveness the free player brings, the paying player brings an ADDITIONAL 100% effective module. For everyone 1 module slot the paid player fills, the free player has to fill 2 to get the same result.

So, the free player wants the same cooling as a paid player. He brings Tier 1 and Tier 2. The paid player gets Tier 3 AND a module, or another consumable. This is where the major power gap comes from, and this is the source of the P2W arguments.

My point was, you lose a module slot but gain the ability to use your coolant in two doses. Even if all forms of flush were available for C-bills I would seriously consider taking the light and medium over a single large.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Again, for 100% effectiveness the free player brings, the paying player brings an ADDITIONAL 100% effective module. For everyone 1 module slot the paid player fills, the free player has to fill 2 to get the same result.

So, the free player wants the same cooling as a paid player. He brings Tier 1 and Tier 2. The paid player gets Tier 3 AND a module, or another consumable. This is where the major power gap comes from, and this is the source of the P2W arguments.

There is no power gap. If you have to sacrifice real modules for use of consumables, you give up one set of advantages to deploy another.

[Josef Nader]

Heeden, on 05 March 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

My point was, you lose a module slot but gain the ability to use your coolant in two doses. Even if all forms of flush were available for C-bills I would seriously consider taking the light and medium over a single large.

That's all well and good, but this is a single-life gamemode with no way to heal yourself after damage has been received in round-based combat. It only takes one big flush for that 6PPC stalker to alpha twice, flush, and gut you with a third alpha that you can't do unless you waste both of your consumables at once. 10% cooling isn't going to do too terribly much. 25% will be noticeable. 35% is significant. Breaking it up into a not useful and sort of useful two-per-match isn't going to make much of a difference when these things are meant to be used at key moments anyway.

He may only get one big artillery barrage, but let's say that barrage significantly damages half your team in a single go. You spend both of your barrages to the same effect... but then he pulls out a tier 3 airstrike that you didn't have room for that swings the match his way. Again, this is where the pay to win is coming from. Sure, there are tactical advantages to being able to split it up a bit, but this is negated by the fact that the T3 consumable frees up another slot for things like capture accelerators or other T3 consumables.

Bubba Wilkins, on 05 March 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

There is no power gap. If you have to sacrifice real modules for use of consumables, you give up one set of advantages to deploy another.

I have two module slots.

T1 Artillery
T2 Artillery

A paying player has two module slots
T3 Artillery = both of the things I brought
A module or consumable of his choice

That's a power gap, champ. He can do the same thing I can do and significantly more with the limited space I have.

Edited by Josef Nader, 05 March 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Protection]

Buying exclusive power with real money -- power that is otherwise off limits to free players no matter how much they play or what they do short of buying MC. That is Pay2Win.

Three tiers of equipment - with the highest, most effective tier being only for real money - is Pay2Win.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

That's all well and good, but this is a single-life gamemode with no way to heal yourself after damage has been received in round-based combat. It only takes one big flush for that 6PPC stalker to alpha twice, flush, and gut you with a third alpha that you can't do unless you waste both of your consumables at once. 10% cooling isn't going to do too terribly much. 25% will be noticeable. 35% is significant. Breaking it up into a not useful and sort of useful two-per-match isn't going to make much of a difference when these things are meant to be used at key moments anyway.

He may only get one big artillery barrage, but let's say that barrage significantly damages half your team in a single go. You spend both of your barrages to the same effect... but then he pulls out a tier 3 airstrike that you didn't have room for that swings the match his way. Again, this is where the pay to win is coming from. Sure, there are tactical advantages to being able to split it up a bit, but this is negated by the fact that the T3 consumable frees up another slot for things like capture accelerators or other T3 consumables.




I have two module slots.

T1 Artillery
T2 Artillery

A paying player has two module slots
T3 Artillery = both of the things I brought
A module or consumable of his choice

That's a power gap, champ. He can do the same thing I can do and significantly more with the limited space I have.

T2 Artillary
T2 Airstrike

Those two are greater in damage potential than any other combination including the MC versions. Advantage to the Cbillers.

[Josef Nader]

Bubba Wilkins, on 05 March 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

T2 Artillary
T2 Airstrike

Those two are greater in damage potential than any other combination including the MC versions. Advantage to the Cbillers.

T3 Artillery
T3 Airstrike

How is that less damage than the free version again?

[Heeden]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

That's all well and good, but this is a single-life gamemode with no way to heal yourself after damage has been received in round-based combat. It only takes one big flush for that 6PPC stalker to alpha twice, flush, and gut you with a third alpha that you can't do unless you waste both of your consumables at once. 10% cooling isn't going to do too terribly much. 25% will be noticeable. 35% is significant. Breaking it up into a not useful and sort of useful two-per-match isn't going to make much of a difference when these things are meant to be used at key moments anyway.

He may only get one big artillery barrage, but if that barrage significantly damages half your team in a single go. You spend both of your barrages to the same effect... but then he pulls out a tier 3 airstrike that you didn't have room for that swings the match his way. Again, this is where the pay to win is coming from. Sure, there are tactical advantages to being able to split it up a bit, but this is negated by the fact that the T3 consumable frees up another slot for things like capture accelerators or other T3 consumables.




I have two module slots.

T1 Artillery
T2 Artillery

A paying player has two module slots
T3 Artillery = both of the things I brought
A module or consumable of his choice

That's a power gap, champ. He can do the same thing I can do and significantly more with the limited space I have.

You're getting the artillery wrong, there are only 2 types - slower targeting with bigger damage, and quicker targeting with less damage. You can only take one of those and I definitely see it as a side-grade rather than a power-gap.

Also if you get alpha'd three times in a row by a 6PPC Stalker you were doing something wrong, and I don't think you can blame the 1 additional PPC blast they got by paying MC rather than C-bills for that.

Personally I would much prefer the option of reducing heat by 20%, firing, assessing then choosing whether I need the extra 15% or not rather than reducing by 35% all in one go. I think that's a worthwhile choice when compared to other uses for the module slot, even if all the flushes were available for C-bills.

[Josef Nader]

Heeden, on 05 March 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

You're getting the artillery wrong, there are only 2 types - slower targeting with bigger damage, and quicker targeting with less damage. You can only take one of those and I definitely see it as a side-grade rather than a power-gap.

Also if you get alpha'd three times in a row by a 6PPC Stalker you were doing something wrong, and I don't think you can blame the 1 additional PPC blast they got by paying MC rather than C-bills for that.

Personally I would much prefer the option of reducing heat by 20%, firing, assessing then choosing whether I need the extra 15% or not rather than reducing by 35% all in one go. I think that's a worthwhile choice when compared to other uses for the module slot, even if all the flushes were available for C-bills.

Where are you getting those numbers from? I don't see anything in the command chair about it.

[Heeden]

Josef Nader, on 05 March 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Where are you getting those numbers from? I don't see anything in the command chair about it.

http://mwomercs.com/...items-feedback/

Stickied at the top of the General Discussion forum.

No idea where the artillery/airstrike info has come from, PGI need some sort of blue-tracker thing going on.

Edit: found it - http://mwomercs.com/...17#entry2006817

Edited by Heeden, 05 March 2013 - 03:34 PM.

[Josef Nader]

Heeden, on 05 March 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...items-feedback/

Stickied at the top of the General Discussion forum.

No idea where the artillery/airstrike info has come from, PGI need some sort of blue-tracker thing going on.

Yes, I know where the coolant numbers came from. The Command Chair and the sticky. I want to know where he's pulling the arty/airstrike numbers from, 'cause I haven't seen those yet and I've been riding this thing like Major Kong since it flared up.

[Kiserai]

Bubba Wilkins, on 05 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

On the surface, isolated from all other information...the coolant module tiers do appear to result in a form of P2W.

BUT...

The compelling argument against it is that we currently now have 14 items competing for the same 2-4 slots in any given mech. When faced with that reality and the abilities of those other 13 modules, very few are going to elect to go with the MC coolant flush. So, if equipping that item results in you not equipping something else such as, clearly there are inherent disadvantages to utilizing it thus defeating the P2W condition. Much like the hero mechs, different doesn't necessarily mean better.

Actually, no. If nobody wanted them, that would mean they were underpowered. They'd be buffed (and rightly so, from a balance perspective). You can't ignore a significant gap in design based on "nobody will use it anyway" because that's never how it works out in the long haul.

[Heeden]

If you missed it, I edit-added a link to the previous post. Currently it's just a quick comment in a thread, more thorough write-up on the way.