7 replies to this topic

[arghmace]

Every Cicada variant receives buffs except CDA-3M which suffers nerfs. Why is that? Oh yes, ECM.

It seems that even PGI realizes that ECM is overpowered since they have to start balancing mech variants around it.

The bad news is that this is a cold shower to all of us that are keeping our fingers crossed for ECM getting fixed and balanced. The more we get changes like these quirks, the harder it's gonna be. I mean if ECM was fixed, then CDA-3M would become a crappy variant now.

While it's now obvious even PGI acknowledge that ECM is overpowered, they seem to be adamant in keeping it in its current state and instead building and balancing the entire game around it - a path that is most certainly much more tedious and difficult. So why do it? This is just stupid. It would be much easier for you the developers and much more fun for us the players to just make ECM balanced in itself instead of hopelessly trying to balance it by tweaking this and that around it.

We have a 1.5 ton and 2 crit equipment that requires us to balance the whole game anew. Ideally it shouldn't be any more powerful than PAB, AMS or Medium Pulse Laser. Obviously we don't have to start quirking mech variants based on the fact that some can carry more med pulses than others. So why hold on to this ECM folly, really now, PGI? Why is this one little equipment getting special treatment?

For reference the quirks as stated by patch notes:

- CDA-2A: Received an additional module slot (this gives it 2 now, like the other variants). Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Torso movement speed increased by 10%. Turning rate increased by 5%.
- CDA-2B: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Arm movement speed increased by 22%. Turning rate increased by 5%.
- CDA-3C: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Turning rate increased by 10%.
- CDA-3M: Turning rate decreased by 5%. Acceleration decreased by 10%.
- CDA-X5: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Turning rate increased by 10%.

Edited by arghmace, 05 March 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Not happy at all that they just nerfed the only particularly good cicada variant. This will just lead to even less cicada players overall.

I went back and looked at the tweaks to the Centurions and Awesomes and no other mech variant got hit this hard. Cents had their acceleration rate decreased by 10% and Awesomes except Pretty Baby had their turning rate decreased by 5%.

However, the Cicada got a 5% AND a 10% nerf in performance.

Making the Cicada 3M even more inferior to the Raven 3L does nothing to help game balance or the cicada chasis overall.

They should have just buffed the other cicadas and left the 3M alone. Goodness knows, the much maligned cicada needs every bit of help it can get especially with state rewind coming in and making its speed even less useful when comparing its huge size to a Raven 3L.

.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 05 March 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[FrostCollar]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 05 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

They should have just buffed the other cicadas and left the 3M alone. Goodness knows, the much maligned cicada needs every bit of help it can get especially with state rewind coming in and making its speed even less useful when comparing its huge size to a Raven 3L.

Overall I agree. However, note that the Cicada is the first mech with ECM that got quirks. I'm pretty sure this heralds quirk nerfs for the ECM Raven and Commando, at the very least.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

FrostCollar, on 05 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Overall I agree. However, note that the Cicada is the first mech with ECM that got quirks. I'm pretty sure this heralds quirk nerfs for the ECM Raven and Commando, at the very least.

Sure, but it could be a couple months before we see them, especially with the Commando. In the meantime, the Raven 3L and Commando 2D will continue to rule the light mech roost even more so after today.

[Phaesphoros]

It seems to me PGI noticed some negative peaks in the stats stating some variants don't perform well or are not chosen very often. While not trying to break anyone's build, they rather use their quirks thing trying to balance them. For Awesomes and Cents, IMHO this works quite well as they have decent and enough hardpoints + some advantages compared to similar chassis (AWS: shield arm, movable-arm-mounted energy hardpoints <-> STK; CN9: shield arm, small LT/RT, arm-mounted ballistics).

IMHO, this WON'T work for CDA, as their hardpoints are simply not good enough compared to 35 t JR or RVN. Essentially, you have 5 t more weight, a bit more armor (40 CT vs 32 CT) and much larger hitboxes (LT/RT, LA/RA, legs). Especially JR<->CDA. Also, the weight distribution of energy based weapons favors light mechs (ML only 1 t, LL already 4 t) or boating - which is impossible in some CDAs due to low amount of hardpoints. I don't find much use in the extra 5 t, as you HAVE to put more armor on it (larger hitboxes), but don't get a decent increment in firepower as well.

The 3M is not that much better than the other CDAs justifying the nerfs IMHO (see hardpoints below). It has one additional ballistics hardpoint when compared to 2B, yet it has not hardpoints in it arms, so no aiming up/down but torso twist. Of course, it CAN mount ECM. That doesn't mean I have to mount it, but obviously PGI thinks I DO have to, to compensate for the nerfs and buffs. I am not amused.

(My suggestion would be to add additional energy or missile hardpoints in the arms, or lower base weight + more armor or more speed/weight, but this is the wrong forum to discuss this.)


I'll elaborate with some numbers.

Biggest issue on light mechs: weight.
dmg / ton, dps/ton of different weapons:
SL: 6/2.67, ML: 5/1.67, LL: 1.8/0.55
SPL: 3/1.33, MPL: 3/1.67, LPL: 1.43/2.25
SRM2: 5/1.43, SRM4: 5/1.33, SRM6: 5/1.25, SSRM2: 3.33/0.95
MG: 0.8, AC/2: 0.33/0.67, AC/5: 0.63/0.37, ....

This is a reason why there are so many MLs and SRMs on lights: high dmg/ton, with many slots that is, high damage. SRM6/4 being chosen over SRM2 because of limited missile hard points. Few SLs because of range (and low alpha for backstabbing AS7).
Hard points:
CDA === 2A: 6E -- 2B: 5E -- 3C: 1E 4B -- 3M: 5E 1B -- X-5: 4E 2M
JR7 === F: 6E -- D: 4E 2M -- K: 4E 1M
RVN === 2X: 4E 1M -- 3L: 3E 2M -- 4X: 2E 1B 1M

CDA-2A and 2B can be compared to JR7-F, but the JR has the hard points in its (hard-to-hit!) arms, so it can better aim up/down. For 5 more tons, you get.... no more hardpoints, which means you have to use MPLs or LLs to get more firepower meh.
CDA-3C can be compared to... SDR-5K (1E 4B)! Since the MG is useless, you can only put 1-2 AC/2 or 1 AC/5-10 on it. Low total alpha dmg and so on.
CDA-3M is quite unique. It's like a RVN-2X but with 1B instead of 1M, and ECM. Not as bad as 3C, yet 4E only, so you have to use say 1LL. Essentially, it's a better armored light with less or equal firepower BUT much larger hitboxes (e.g. legs).

Edited by Phaesphoros, 06 March 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[Lykaon]

I totally agree that ECM has become a massive square peg that PGI keeps trying to hammer into a round hole.

The amount of periferal alterations done to the game to suit ECM is quickly becoming distressingly long.

Mech lab features altered to make ECM chassis specific.Now Jump Jets and ECM are the only items linked specificly to chassis type.As stated by the Development team ECM was too potent to be allowed on every chassis.

TAG functionality altered to mitigate ECM effects ...TWICE.

Modules added to mitigate ECM effects.

PPCs altered to mitigate ECM effects.

Chassis quirks now being influenced by ECM.

Why keep hammering away at the square peg just round ECM out.

[Xendojo]

I am of the opinion that the dev's are thinking ahead...like to the imminent clan invasion.

I may be wrong, but don't the clanners look down upon using things like ECM?

[Deathlike]

I don't think ECM and clanners matter. If we have to role play the reality, then it's silly. The reality is, ECM is what it is (outside of balancing within the game).

Boosting the 3C's quirks does not make it better in any way shape or form. Making MGs better would be step in the right direction. That's what the devs are not understanding. AC2s aren't really great alternatives either...