97 replies to this topic

[DukeRustfield]

ECM is as annoying as indirect fire, LRM boats sitting behind a hill, their mouse cap jammed into the key and one hand in the pretzel bag. Saying AMS is a counter to lockfire is like saying running out of bounds is a counter to direct fire--okay, not that bad.

I can see from my new improved stats that LRMs are pretty horrible in accuracy. But it really doesn't matter. If they are 5% accurate and you can shoot without being shot, they are god. My dmg on LRM is about a .36 ratio of dmg/fired. Compared to about a .9 for SRM (42-45% accuracy, 67 for SSRM). But the difference is the LRMs are shooting across the map without LoS needed.

I like the ECM bubble. I like you can move a team of brawlers up in a tunnel without it being lol-ingly obvious. And I like that you can avoid 80 LRMs raining down on you without a chance to fire back. I don't play small mechs, but I even like they can get ECM and not be smeared. The new 5X doesn't have it and he was dancing around in circles at light speed and I just threw 60 LRM in his general direction and he melted.

[Theevenger]

Honestly I think ECM is fine now. There are fewer people able to rock the light Mechs due to netcode and latency improvements. Tags are better than they used to be. I think the PPC thing works well. I honestly think ECM is balanced at present.

[Critical Fumble]

DukeRustfield, on 06 March 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Spoiler

ECM is as annoying as indirect fire, LRM boats sitting behind a hill, their mouse cap jammed into the key and one hand in the pretzel bag. Saying AMS is a counter to lockfire is like saying running out of bounds is a counter to direct fire--okay, not that bad.
I can see from my new improved stats that LRMs are pretty horrible in accuracy. But it really doesn't matter. If they are 5% accurate and you can shoot without being shot, they are god. My dmg on LRM is about a .36 ratio of dmg/fired. Compared to about a .9 for SRM (42-45% accuracy, 67 for SSRM). But the difference is the LRMs are shooting across the map without LoS needed.
I like the ECM bubble. I like you can move a team of brawlers up in a tunnel without it being lol-ingly obvious. And I like that you can avoid 80 LRMs raining down on you without a chance to fire back. I don't play small mechs, but I even like they can get ECM and not be smeared. The new 5X doesn't have it and he was dancing around in circles at light speed and I just threw 60 LRM in his general direction and he melted.

Getting melted my LRMs has happened since the dawn of beta; and all ECM has done is make people think that LRMs aren't dangerous - like those birds on Guam that aren't afraid of snakes.

I also feel I must inform you that you that you saw someone who has yet to figure out the Cicada. At that size:armor ratio you can't play it like you're a brawler. Its a velociraptor. BE the velociraptor!

[Ghostbear Gurdel]

If LRMs are the problem, they need to be tweaked. I am fine with lowering the damage down to 1 per missile like they should be, or lowering the accuracy, fine, but that does not change the fact that ECM is broken. Using one broken thing to fight another broken thing does not make either one less broken.

Edited by Ghostbear Gurdel, 06 March 2013 - 08:54 PM.

[DukeRustfield]

Critical Fumble, on 06 March 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Getting melted my LRMs has happened since the dawn of beta; and all ECM has done is make people think that LRMs aren't dangerous - like those birds on Guam that aren't afraid of snakes.

I also feel I must inform you that you that you saw someone who has yet to figure out the Cicada. At that size:armor ratio you can't play it like you're a brawler. Its a velociraptor. BE the velociraptor!

In their credit, they weren't fighting me. They were doing what they should be doing. But I was 700 away and because of my partner, knew they were there. End of story.

Also, Tag works. People are making these "OMG I HAVE TO EQUIP MY OWN TAG" statements. You know those things that totally bypass ECM and cost 1 ton. I've even seen people keep them perma on. It doesn't get past the sneaky of ECM, but it gets past the fact you can't lock them.

[Marcus Tanner]

ECM is still the best use of tonnage and crits in this game, making it a clear choice. I would take it even if there were no LRMs or streaks in this game, because preventing locks is gravy.

The thing only weighs a ton and a half. The improved ability to sneak around is worth that. I know that it doesn't mean much for a lot of people - but it doesn't *have* to mean a lot, the thing is only 1.5 tons. Preventing enemies from getting a wireframe on you is also worth something, not much but something.

Fuzzing enemies nearby would be worth it, taking them off the minimap of their team. Even on comms, it makes people spend their time sharing positional data instead of commands or suggestions, and that's worth something. It also makes it harder to figure out *precise* location, and that's also worth something. It doesn't have to be worth a lot, because the device is only 1.5 tons. ECM is pocket change on an Atlas.

---

LRMs and streaks are also problematically good, but the answer to that is to make those weapons less effective, not to engage in an arms race with another piece of equipment.

Some designer seems to be in love with what ECM does, and wants it to be a core gameplay mechanic. If so, then the thing to do is to strip ECM of the non-canon functionality (the stealth parts), tone that down and make those effects into modules available to any mech. Then let any mech equip ECM.

I have a friend who stopped playing just after ECM came out, because it was frustrating and messed up role warfare because his jenner couldn't do its job as spotter for fire support. He played his first game in months the other day and enjoyed the game again not because ECM was okay, but because there was less of it out there.

Preventing NARC, Beagle and Artemis should be convincing enough that some people bring ECM, even without the other effects. However, Narc and Beagle are simply not good enough to justify that kind of counter even if ECM didn't exist. The fact that they coexist makes Narc and Beagle not just bad, but garbage.

---

ECM has a host of problems that a novice game designer should be able to catch. The first red flag is the laundry list of effects. The second one is that it works at long range and at short range, but not in the middle band and that makes it counter-intuitive (a bad thing). The next red flag is the use of chassis restrictions to artificially reduce the number used (chassis restrictions are fine in and of themselves but they're a poor a balancing mechanic). Then we have the development of a number of "little" counters to ECM, and any mechanic with its own ecosystem should be flagged hard as a potential problem (including LRMs). Making ECM the best tool for fighting ECM would lead to raised eyebrows among good game designers. When a game goes horribly wrong you'll often find a denial mechanic ("you don't get to have your fun" effect) at the heart of the problem, and ECM is ten kinds of denial handled in a very cavalier way.

Add all that up, and add the indifference to feedback, and I'm inescapably led to a depressing impression of the design team behind MWO. They've done a minimally competent job at translating tabletop mechanics to computer gameplay, but this game leans hard on the strength of the tabletop system, the franchise and the art to justify my time and money.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to look at the pretty maps now that I can do that without get fired at.

[sarkun]

ECM is still a no brainer - even with supposed counters - modules, TAG, PPCs.

Think about it: take any mech in your garage. If you suddenly gained ability to add ECM to that mech (for the 1.5ton 2crit cost) would you do it? Of course you would.

ECM has no drawbacks and is significantly more powerful than anything else in game of similar size/weight.

It needs to be toned downed / given some drawbacks so that taking it is a decision, not an obvious choice.

[GrizzlyViking]

Is there a valid reason for this thread?

I think not.

[Torarild]

Meh, still needs balancing, it does too much compared to what it costs to bring, and it is still a "no brainer" item.

At the very least, make friendly tags still show up, even in bubble, so one dont get the friendly fire problems.

[Xenok]

Ari Dian, on 06 March 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

There are a few parts they cant change without breaking the construction rules from the TT.
Crit slots and weight are two of the parts that would cause problems with the stock designs.

But they could and should change the function of what is does.
Maybe easiest with adding different ECMs that do different funktions. Like ECM1: reduce target range; ECM2: 180 Bubble against Streaks; ....

I would rather have them not have stock varients. Sell the chassis to me for cbills or MC but leave all the stuff off. Who cares about what a standard varient is in a TT game? Apparently no one as no one leaves them that way anyway, except maybe the X-5 as it actually would play as a base varrient. I hope they do more of the "Standard" varients as either empty or upgrade them to make them playable as they are. It would greately improve the game over attempting to stay in cannon.

[Xenok]

sarkun, on 07 March 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

ECM is still a no brainer - even with supposed counters - modules, TAG, PPCs.

Think about it: take any mech in your garage. If you suddenly gained ability to add ECM to that mech (for the 1.5ton 2crit cost) would you do it? Of course you would.

ECM has no drawbacks and is significantly more powerful than anything else in game of similar size/weight.

It needs to be toned downed / given some drawbacks so that taking it is a decision, not an obvious choice.

I agree with given some kind of drawbacks, but as far as tonning it down, just give us some counters that work as well as it does.

I saw a post about ECM targetting missiles. Add in a SSRM and LRM missile type that auto target the ECM generating mech, just shoot them up in the air and they head to any mech (friend of foe) that generates ECM, likely the closest one. make it an option that can be equiped like artimis (you take normal, artimis or ECM missiles) they can still be used normally but if they are fired in ECM mode they will only track and target the mech generating either ECM or a counter ECM field. It would with this counter, be required to add a third option to ECM to turn it off so that they can choose not to use until the right time. It may all ready exist, I do not own an ECM mech. I rather liked this Idea.

[NuclearPanda]

Lyrik, on 06 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

PGI responds. Not by wasting time on noops who are more in the forums instead of adapting to the game. But implementing nerfs to ECM.

Lyrik, on 06 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Aha, if you would play more instead of being a worthless forumwarrior you would see that LRM's Mech are not. All the LRM spam ingame shows me that ECM should rather need a buff.
SSRM doesn't need a nerf. Remove the A1 :-P

Buff ECM. ECM for my Hunch !!!

Really? Let's devolve the conversation into the typical "NO U R TEH STUPIDZ ONE!" crap. It's typical on the internet these days, and resorting to logical fallacies (such as your ad hominem attacks) to get your point across just shows your lack of understanding/critical thinking.

ECM is overpowered in its current state for what it is. Want to keep it so powerful? Make it take up much more critical slots and tonnage. Want to keep it low weight and easy equip? Nerf it's abilities. So far PGI has done neither after a few months. They have not nerfed the ECM one single bit, and no lowering it's health isn't a nerf that will affect any situation which people are upset about. PPC as a counter? Invalid as previously discussed. Right now the only counter to ECM is ECM, and that is gameplay breaking.

SSRMs also need to be modified. I say that, and not "nerf", because I feel the damage is appropriate. Modifications need to be made to other things, such as maximum weapon slots on various mech chassis and possibly AMS tweaks,

If you'd like to discuss this in proper fashion and not just sit there herp derping on your keyboard I'd love to. If you want to fling around insults I'll just ignore your future comments.

Cheers.

Edited by NuclearPanda, 07 March 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Twisted Power]

Ghostbear Gurdel, on 06 March 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

Using one broken thing to fight another broken thing...

But this statement IS PGI. All they do is fix broken things by implimenting broken things.

Edit:So this post has a star instead of a dot next to it, maybe we can request a sticky?

Edited by Twisted Power, 07 March 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[NuclearPanda]

Twisted Power, on 07 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

All they do is fix broken things by implimenting broken things.

And to be honest, this I can live with. I completely understand that the game is still in Beta currently.

What I do not understand is the slow/lack of response from PGI is attempting to tweak ECM's values and effects. I mean how quickly did they correct Artemis+LRMs? It was pretty much within 24 hours once they knew it was broke.

I'd like to see them at least TRY to play around with ECM and what it does. See what "feels right", because right now I think most of us can agree that it is unbalanced in the grand scheme of the game.

Sadly, I believe they're too concerned at the moment with money making with the focus on the direction of purchasable camoflage and consumables.

[Sasha Volkova]

Lyrik, on 06 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

PGI responds. Not by wasting time on noops who are more in the forums instead of adapting to the game. But implementing nerfs to ECM.


Aha, if you would play more instead of being a worthless forumwarrior you would see that LRM's Mech are not. All the LRM spam ingame shows me that ECM should rather need a buff.
SSRM doesn't need a nerf. Remove the A1 :-P

Buff ECM. ECM for my Hunch !!!

Posts like these makes me wish for a dislike button...

Seriously though in all fairness ECM is simply OP as it is.
It was broken in the beginning when it completely removed the effect of 2 weapons (SSRM and LRMS) aswell as not allowing you to get ANY target data.
But it didnt stop there...
Sadly ECM is also without any real counters, like many people have stated the counters such as PPC, tag and ECM itself are surely halfassed and poorly thought of ideas to smooth out a consistent problem which is and always was ECM itself.

If ECM is balanced right now that would mean running only ECM mechs is considered a balanced game - but leaving 2 weapons useless is not in anyway balanced.

I understand if PGI thought ECM was a great way to stop splatcats and LRM-warrior online.
But seriously PGI needs to wake up and realize (if they havent already) that ECM needs fixing and it needs it fast before new players or veterans simply leave out of frustration.
I have personally lost 4 IRL friends to ECM already.
How many more needs to ¨die¨ before you realize this is not working out?

[StalaggtIKE]

Critical Fumble, on 06 March 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

I also feel I must inform you that you that you saw someone who has yet to figure out the Cicada. At that size:armor ratio you can't play it like you're a brawler. Its a velociraptor. BE the velociraptor!

This is my Velociraptor, hear it roar!

[Asha Catari]

NuclearPanda, on 07 March 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Sadly, I believe they're too concerned at the moment with money making with the focus on the direction of purchasable camoflage and consumables.

Instead of fixing ECM (the core problem) they focused on hundreds of ways to counter its game breaking effects in a rock-paper-scissors way and failed horribly at that. (The whole idea was stupid if you ask me - both ecm and the rock-paper-scissor appraoch).
Now they are focused on making money ?because the players are paying less because of over powered ECM (the core problem)? which leads to less income for PGI. If this goes the same way as the wannabe-counters to ECM then PGI will, again, fail horribly. Leaving them bankrupt? I certainly hope not, but I fear that PGI has committed itself to a course that will inevitably lead to a dying player base and the end of this game very fast.

Edit: fixed a typo

Edited by Asha Catari, 08 March 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[Liquidx]

Whatever adjusting they do to ecm, they need to let targeting data relayed by tag be unaffected.
IE:
If I have tag, and I lock a target with it, I should be able to maintain that target so long as the line of sight of tag remains. Have ecm block my target data relay to other players if the ecm mech is close enough - but let me use my lock-on weapons when I should clearly be able to establish a lock due to a direct laser sight. Do this and tag not only gains a lot of value across the board, but ECM lights no longer have immunity to the very weapons they employ.

I also like the idea that ECM should prohibit the use of lock on weapons for all mechs under an ECM bubble (unless they have tag). Let the players make the difficult choices of when they should toggle ECM modes - to do damage, or to avoid it. This would probably balance out the "team with more ecm wins" conditions we typically see now.

[NuclearPanda]

Asha Catari, on 08 March 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

Instead of fixing ECM (the core problem) they focused on hundreds of ways to counter its game breaking effects in a rock-paper-scissors way and failed horribly at that.

I agree. Instead of tuning up the module they keep trying to add more effects to other weapons without addressing the root issue. As I said before I'd love for them to at least TRY to adjust some of ECM's values. Smaller bubble? Longer cooldown switching between modes? Who knows,,,

Liquidx, on 08 March 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Have ecm block my target data relay to other players if the ecm mech is close enough - but let me use my lock-on weapons when I should clearly be able to establish a lock due to a direct laser sight. Do this and tag not only gains a lot of value across the board, but ECM lights no longer have immunity to the very weapons they employ.

This is a fantastic idea I support, especially considering TAG isn't "easy mode" to use. You need to maintain LOS, and keep it firing the whole time. There is no reason that targeting laser can't penetrate the ECM bubble.

[Twisted Power]

@N.Panda:

I also understand we are in Beta, in fact I even posted on that thread where everybody was like "OMG they are just hiding behind the word beta" that they didn’t know what they were talking about. I don't think we can be in anything but a Beta.

However the point of beta is to "test" things. Not to fully implement broken things and then say there is nothing wrong with them.

PGI is not "slow" in tweaking ECM. They have clearly stated that they think there is nothing wrong with it and they are choosing not to respond to threads like this and not to fix it. It is PGI who is not treating ECM like this is beta, they are treating it as if ECM is 99% compleat. Those "fast" tweaks you are talking about are the realy lame tag+PPC+Modules changes. They actually think that those things did something and now everything is "OK".

So untill they actually treat the things they do in regards to gameplay and balance as if they are in a BETA then I do not agree with implimenting broken things to fix other broken things. PGI has shown they cannot handle it and continue to add more things that are broken but don't seem that way because other things like ECM are masking the problem.

Edited by Twisted Power, 08 March 2013 - 10:57 AM.