19 replies to this topic

[clantic]

Other forum posts have touched on this topic, but I thought I'd bring the debate into a thread that has an obvious focus on the issue at hand.

I was very disappointed to read the new patch notes, as I'm sure many others are. This is the biggest P2W change yet, and it shakes my faith in the game and it's developers. I'm looking for a job right now, and though I would love to support mechwarrior and spend some cash on the game, I simply can't do it right now. So if this is a free to play game, why would they add a mechanic that literally throws balance for free players out the window? The rate of making c-bills for free players is pretty damn low as it is. Now to have an op coolent drop, I either need to farm my *** off on money I could use saving for a new mech, or I need to pony up some real cash. As much as I liked the game and was waiting for the opportunity to spend some real money on it, I now am considering uninstalling the game.
I don't like cheating, I hate pay to win games. Paying for power ups in game in my opinion is developer allowed cheating. They may as well have MC paid aimbot. Even if you couldn't pay for the power ups with MC, the pay to cheat argument would STILL be valid as the rate of c-bills for players who pay is far greater than for free players.
This is truly a deal breaker for me and I'm very sad to see this game stoop to such a low. I understand they need to make a profit and times are very tough, but this pay to win strategy is unfair to new players and makes competitive gameplay a joke. I'll try out the patch for a few days, but I think I will be leaving the game very soon.
Do you disagree? Do you agree? Post your thoughts here!


*EDIT* based off Protection's post*
If PGI closes this thread, then that will mean the end of my playing the game. It would be far to underhanded of them to close a topic on the game that a lot of people want to discuss, and I refuse to support developers who suppress or censor community opinion to maintain profit.

Edited by clantic, 05 March 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[Vermaxx]

Pay to Flush no.

Pay to Flush for 35 while only using one modslot, and not being able to replicate that with CB? Yes.

I answered no, since I don't think "consumables" will break the game or are in any way DEFFO PAY TO WIN ZOMG.

I think that the clear differences between the MC/CB versions make the MC versions grossly superior, and could therefore be construed as pay to win.

[Adrian Steel]

M A L I C E, on 05 March 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

It's not just the flush that's the issue, it's the complete 3 tier system with the top tier being MC only.

We finally agree on something Malice.

When a mysterious enemy invades with previously unseen pay-to-win modules, old forum enemies set aside their differences and unite to form the new Star League!

[Trev Firestorm]

Hard to say, don't really like the idea because it can very easily get worse, but at the same time it doesn't sound even remotely attractive to put on my mechs in any form anyway.

[Slaytronic]

i said yes if we let this pass then the game will go down a dark ugly road

[El Penguin]

If coolant HAS to be in the game, they just need to make 3rd tier coolant purchasable with CBills. That is all. Simple as that but it's obvious they don't want to take the fair route to get money...

Or they could make MC coolant have like 10 uses before expiring for 25MC or something while CBill is one use for #### amount. But once again I doubt they would even think about that looking at the overpriced mechs we have.

Edited by El Penguin, 05 March 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Vermaxx]

Slaytronic, on 05 March 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

i said yes if we let this pass then the game will go down a dark ugly road

We don't "let" them do anything. They do it, and we can stay or quit.

We have literally zero control. "We" in this context being the forum users. Sure, "we" can refuse to ever buy MC again.

There are plenty of people who read and don't post, and disagree with almost every stance the forum takes. There are plenty of people who never read, and will just see a way to shart money at PGI for yet another marginal benefit.

[Protection]

My thread was closed and locked here: http://mwomercs.com/...is-is-pay-2-win

Here is a restatement:

I wasn't happy with the idea of Hero Mechs (as some may remember my 76 page long discussion against Hero Mechs unavailable to free players). I don't like content being unavailable to free players - especially when that content allows different gameplay options, strategies and tactics that free players can never imitate.

But this is worse that that. PGI is introducing a tiered module system. There will be 3 tiers of coolant flush, 3 tiers of artillery strike, and 3 tiers of air strike. And the highest - most powerful - tier will be off limits to free players.

And this is just the start of a tiered module/consumable system that will extend to future modules and future consumables and future equipment. If we allow it into the game here and now, then it will be there to stay. A tiered, paying for power hierarchy will be established and once entrenched it wont be removed.

I cannot emphasize this enough:

Making the most powerful consumables MC only IS PAYING FOR POWER.

Power that free players cannot have access to, exclusively for paying customers. This is no different than Golden Ammunition. Paying customers are being given, not just options, but black and white, clear as day, power - advantageous improvements over free players.

"But Protection - I can just by a tier one coolant module and a tier two coolant module, and have the same desired effect."

At the cost of a module slot! This is not fair. This is not equal playing fields. This is not competition.

If two players use a mech with only one module: player A has a paid Tier 3 Large Coolant Flush, where Player B has a Tier 2 Medium Coolant Flush -- and everything else (mech loadout) is the same, then player A has purchased an advantage. By cooling more heat faster, he has improved DPS, improved efficiency, less chance to shutdown. This is an absolute advantage.

To illustrate it in other ways:

Quote

So, someone who pays C-Bills only can get with his 4 module slots (max):

T1 Cooling
T2 Cooling
T1 Airstrike
T2 Airstrike

The same person who drops cash can get:

T3 Cooling
T3 Airstrike
T3 Artillery
Module of their Choice.

See the problem here?

Or how about another:

Quote

Or take a free to play lance, each fitted with:

T2 Cooling
T2 Airstrike
T2 Artillery


Dropping against an identical lance, each with

T3 Cooling
T3 AirStrike
T3 Artillery

Both teams have cooling and calldowns, but the second team has far far more damage to be dealt with all eight of theirs, as well as improved cooling. It's a total advantage.

This is complete and total garbage. This is the exact sort of thing we were repeatedly told that PGI would never resort to, and the kind of thing that they were striving to avoid. This kind of thing is utterly ruinous to competitive play - the team that doesn't spend real money doesn't get to play with the same equipment - but only less powerful substitutes (or fewer of them).

This is completely and utterly ruinous to Mechwarrior: Online - as a competitive game or even as a game that many of us want to play.

Consumables are bad. Tiered, MC-only, equipment is worse. PGI, please don't implement consumables in this fashion. Don't make free players less competitive. Don't make free players forced to use inferior equipment, regardless of how hard they grind. Don't ruin game balance in this fashion. You will lose players over this - and ultimately revenues.

[clantic]

Vermaxx, on 05 March 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

We don't "let" them do anything. They do it, and we can stay or quit.

We have literally zero control. "We" in this context being the forum users. Sure, "we" can refuse to ever buy MC again.

There are plenty of people who read and don't post, and disagree with almost every stance the forum takes. There are plenty of people who never read, and will just see a way to shart money at PGI for yet another marginal benefit.

We have far more control than you believe, as we are the community that keeps this game alive. If the developers refuse to listen to their community then they are doomed to fail. None the less your argument has some weight to it, how much has yet to be determined...

Edited by clantic, 05 March 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Livewyr]

ECM is balanced!
LRMs are balanced!
Coolant pods are Pay-to-win!

[Livewyr]

From Bryan:

• There are cooldown timers. Cooldown timers make sure there is a space between shots and prevents a team coordinating a single massive strike.
  
• CB Version does more damage but is slower to target. 10,000 CB
  
• Version does less damage but is faster to target. 25
  
• Only one of each can be equipped.
  
• Only one user per match.
  
• Consumed when used.

Holy mother of gawd.. 10K Cbills... breakin the bank!!!
Pay...to...win...

One does more damage, the other is faster (more accurate on a moving target)
Pay... to.. win..

Play one game- do absolutely nothing, no damage, no capping, no spotting, nothing.. buy 2 Airstrikes.

Pay.. to... win...



(also, if they close your thread, it'll probably because it is.. well the Unofficial 120th repeat thread in the past 6 hours.)

[Livewyr]

M A L I C E, on 05 March 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Actually their favorite tactic now is to just s**tcan the thread in the deepest, darkest subforum they can find and hope it dies.

You would know.

[Noobzorz]

It's pretty crummy that they've decided to go back on previous claims by at least one staffer that they wouldn't be in the game, and it's pretty crummy that they ditched R&R only to get consumables in the mix (which **** with balance), but these are both things that we can get around.

There is a really cut and dried example of P2W occurring here, though, and I don't see why anyone is okay with it or how anyone could. It's not ok in any form if the paid content is better, no matter how marginally (and I would argue that this is not marginal at all).

[Livewyr]

Noobzorz, on 05 March 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

It's pretty crummy that they've decided to go back on previous claims by at least one staffer that they wouldn't be in the game, and it's pretty crummy that they ditched R&R only to get consumables in the mix (which **** with balance), but these are both things that we can get around.

There is a really cut and dried example of P2W occurring here, though, and I don't see why anyone is okay with it or how anyone could. It's not ok in any form if the paid content is better, no matter how marginally (and I would argue that this is not marginal at all).

Cut and Dry Pay-to-Win you say?

Lets see here:
CBill Coolant Pod Pros: Can choose whether to dump 15%, 20%, or 35% at two seperate times or all at once.
Cbill Coolant Pod Cons: Takes two slots (if you choose to bring two). Once used, no more.

MC Coolant Pod Pros: Dumps 35%
MC Coolant Pod Cons: Cannot be used more than once. Once used, no more.

Summary: Cbill CP's can take up 2 spots, but for that can dump smaller amounts of heat twice in a match. MC CPs take up 1 spot, and dump 35% but can only be used once, period. So once you use it, it's gone.
I think you can figure out the advantages and disadvantages of both; but it's most definitely NOT "cut and dry Pay-to-Win"
MC only CP with no CBill alternative would be P2W.

Airstrikes:
Cbill Airstrike Pros: More damage.
Cbill Airstrike Cons: Slower delivery.

MC Airstrike Pros: Faster delivery.
MC Airstrike Cons: Less damage.

Summary: Cbill Airstrikes require more foresight to deliver accurately and are not ideal for a panic button; but they do more damage when they hit. MC Airstrikes are faster delivery so more accurate on moving targets and a better panic button, but don't do as much damage.. The advantages/disadvantages of both are obvious.
So no, this is not "cut and dry Pay-to-Win"

That word gets thrown at anything that costs MC only, it's obscene. (I even remember some fool saying the MC camo was P2W because the ability to camo was strategic advantage...)

Pay-to-Think.

[Mystere]

Protection, on 05 March 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

But this is worse that that. PGI is introducing a tiered module system. There will be 3 tiers of coolant flush, 3 tiers of artillery strike, and 3 tiers of air strike. And the highest - most powerful - tier will be off limits to free players.

Please educate yourself. Air and artillery strikes will not have three tiers, just two different flavors.

[Nathan Foxbane]

More like pay to blow your load all at once. C-bill versions might take up more module slots for the same effect and/or not be as big, but they have more overall endurance if you are willing to sacrifice module space.

[Parnage Winters]

Livewyr, on 05 March 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

From Bryan:

• There are cooldown timers. Cooldown timers make sure there is a space between shots and prevents a team coordinating a single massive strike.
  
• CB Version does more damage but is slower to target. 10,000 CB
  
• Version does less damage but is faster to target. 25
  
• Only one of each can be equipped.
  
• Only one user per match.
  
• Consumed when used.

Holy mother of gawd.. 10K Cbills... breakin the bank!!!
Pay...to...win...

One does more damage, the other is faster (more accurate on a moving target)
Pay... to.. win..

Play one game- do absolutely nothing, no damage, no capping, no spotting, nothing.. buy 2 Airstrikes.

Pay.. to... win...



(also, if they close your thread, it'll probably because it is.. well the Unofficial 120th repeat thread in the past 6 hours.)

I like how you quote that as if it's a response to the actual concern of a tier model that kinda screws that entire response. If they had responded to that(I've not seen such yet) I'd not be upset.

It's not the price it's the fact that freeguy gets a module slot taken away while the mc doesn't. I use my module slots. don't you?

[RG Notch]

Well it's only a matter of time until this gets locked down, it was nice playing with you OP.

[FromHell2k]

Livewyr, on 05 March 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

From Bryan:

• There are cooldown timers. Cooldown timers make sure there is a space between shots and prevents a team coordinating a single massive strike.
  
• CB Version does more damage but is slower to target. 10,000 CB
  
• Version does less damage but is faster to target. 25
  
• Only one of each can be equipped.
  
• Only one user per match.
  
• Consumed when used.

Holy mother of gawd.. 10K Cbills... breakin the bank!!!
Pay...to...win...

One does more damage, the other is faster (more accurate on a moving target)
Pay... to.. win..

Play one game- do absolutely nothing, no damage, no capping, no spotting, nothing.. buy 2 Airstrikes.

Pay.. to... win...



(also, if they close your thread, it'll probably because it is.. well the Unofficial 120th repeat thread in the past 6 hours.)

Livewyr, on 05 March 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

From Bryan:

• There are cooldown timers. Cooldown timers make sure there is a space between shots and prevents a team coordinating a single massive strike.
  
• CB Version does more damage but is slower to target. 10,000 CB
  
• Version does less damage but is faster to target. 25
  
• Only one of each can be equipped.
  
• Only one user per match.
  
• Consumed when used.

Holy mother of gawd.. 10K Cbills... breakin the bank!!!
Pay...to...win...

One does more damage, the other is faster (more accurate on a moving target)
Pay... to.. win..

Play one game- do absolutely nothing, no damage, no capping, no spotting, nothing.. buy 2 Airstrikes.

Pay.. to... win...



(also, if they close your thread, it'll probably because it is.. well the Unofficial 120th repeat thread in the past 6 hours.)

Congratulations Sir!
Now you're part of the idocrasy!

Protection, on 05 March 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

My thread was closed and locked here: http://mwomercs.com/...is-is-pay-2-win

Here is a restatement:

I wasn't happy with the idea of Hero Mechs (as some may remember my 76 page long discussion against Hero Mechs unavailable to free players). I don't like content being unavailable to free players - especially when that content allows different gameplay options, strategies and tactics that free players can never imitate.

But this is worse that that. PGI is introducing a tiered module system. There will be 3 tiers of coolant flush, 3 tiers of artillery strike, and 3 tiers of air strike. And the highest - most powerful - tier will be off limits to free players.

And this is just the start of a tiered module/consumable system that will extend to future modules and future consumables and future equipment. If we allow it into the game here and now, then it will be there to stay. A tiered, paying for power hierarchy will be established and once entrenched it wont be removed.

I cannot emphasize this enough:

Making the most powerful consumables MC only IS PAYING FOR POWER.

Power that free players cannot have access to, exclusively for paying customers. This is no different than Golden Ammunition. Paying customers are being given, not just options, but black and white, clear as day, power - advantageous improvements over free players.

"But Protection - I can just by a tier one coolant module and a tier two coolant module, and have the same desired effect."

At the cost of a module slot! This is not fair. This is not equal playing fields. This is not competition.

If two players use a mech with only one module: player A has a paid Tier 3 Large Coolant Flush, where Player B has a Tier 2 Medium Coolant Flush -- and everything else (mech loadout) is the same, then player A has purchased an advantage. By cooling more heat faster, he has improved DPS, improved efficiency, less chance to shutdown. This is an absolute advantage.

To illustrate it in other ways:



Or how about another:







This is complete and total garbage. This is the exact sort of thing we were repeatedly told that PGI would never resort to, and the kind of thing that they were striving to avoid. This kind of thing is utterly ruinous to competitive play - the team that doesn't spend real money doesn't get to play with the same equipment - but only less powerful substitutes (or fewer of them).

This is completely and utterly ruinous to Mechwarrior: Online - as a competitive game or even as a game that many of us want to play.

Consumables are bad. Tiered, MC-only, equipment is worse. PGI, please don't implement consumables in this fashion. Don't make free players less competitive. Don't make free players forced to use inferior equipment, regardless of how hard they grind. Don't ruin game balance in this fashion. You will lose players over this - and ultimately revenues.

[Trev Firestorm]

Protection, on 05 March 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

You sir, win. (Though the lines could have been matched up a little better.)

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 05 March 2013 - 07:44 PM.