242 replies to this topic

[Bubba Wilkins]

Orzorn, on 06 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I think its more than a bit funny that when we finally get faced with something that is literally an advantage, people then move the goal posts. "Oh, its not that bad, so its not pay 2 win."


It you get an advantage for paying. Its "pay 2 win". Don't let the stupid hyperbole name of that phrase let you misunderstand. You are PAYING for a gameplay EDGE. This is an edge, no way about it (so long as you can read and realize its one flush per module. Some people seem to be having issues with that still).

Just think about it. You might want to say "oh stop whining, its not that bad." Do you realize what you're doing by saying that? You're brushing aside a serious issue. It will affect the game heavily. It is bad. In fact, its one module slot, and maybe 15% more bad.

Do not let your willingness to 'let it slide' get the better of you. Realize how this will affect competitiveness in this game, and how every edge counts. Why do you think people min-max their mechs (even if its not normally a "top" mech)? Every edge counts in this game, and if you have to pay for it, people will do so. And if you do not, they will ALWAYS have those combined edges over you. It only takes a few inches to make a box cutter into a long knife. These edges will ruin competition, ruin trust between groups, ruin people's moods, cause frustration, drive potential users away, drive current users away, and be generally a plague upon the game for the rest of its existence.

If the edges were truly "not that bad", then why can't we purchase them for c-bills? Why is there an exclusive branch that we can't touch without reaching for our wallets? Because they're better.

In terms of defending Paul; he needs no defense. If he made this system, he can make it better. It is his job, after all, and I'm sure he has plenty of feedback (vitriol or no) at this point. As I said, why is the top tier so exclusive as to require MC? What happened to paying for convenience, and not power? Make it like that, and I'd be fine with it.

The argument isn't "It's not that bad."
The argument is "It's not better than other choices for the same slot."

If you are going to chose the flush consumable, then clearly the MC one results in the best value/slot.
But the REAL decision is not to choose which Flush Module you're going to equip, but rather whether or not you are going to waste a slot on it at all. That's the distinction that PGI has made in their implementation of the Hero Mechs and I see it clearly here as well. How can an item be P2W if the majority of players overwhelmingly choose other modules instead?

[Yokaiko]

Fiachdubh, on 06 March 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I hope Paul and PGI make shitloads of money off of coolant flushes so they can keep the game going and improving. It is not P2W, once or twice a match? If your mech is running that hot it is not going to be that much help. If you think it is that powerfull buy it with c-bills, I won't be using it at all.

What about when you run into an entire team of them, and they are ALL running MC only modules.

[Super Mono]

Fiachdubh, on 06 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Yes as if being deprived of that extra slot to get an extra zoom magnification is going to be a game changer, If you cannot win without coolant you will not win with it so if anything they are being hampered by wasting one or two module slots. Such a minor difference does not, in my opinion at least, make it P2W.

CW has not even started yet so how about people wait and see how it affects the game before throwing their mice and joysticks down in hissy fits and filling the forums with rage and tears.

Gold air strikes and gold artillery modules have already been announced. There will be more gold modules on the way that will also give great advantages to those that buy them. Players using the cbill versions needing two slots to equal one premium slot won't be able to compete.

Also, if you think coolant flush isn't a big advantage then have fun lowering your Elo score on the 19th.

Edited by Super Mono, 06 March 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[Stone Profit]

WolvesX, on 06 March 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Go hear him on NGNG: http://nogutsnogalaxy.net/

I honestly don't think that he is a greedy man that isn't willing or able to balance the game and intruduce Pay-to-win.

I think the moneymonkeys told him: "You shall make a cash cow item! Now! Or you WILL get fired and you get a new guy that is doing your job!"

Don't hit the hand, hit the heart.

Paul you are a nice guy, I hope they are not to hard on you!

- NO SUPPORT FOR PAY-TO-WIN -

EDIT: Better link to the podcast! http://nogutsnogalax...asts,devs-beer/

Whilst I disagree with those calling the consumables pay to win, and I DO agree that paul is a pretty good guy, Paul is not the one in charge of deciding what the game introduces to make money. ANy who are upset about how the game goes about making money should direct their wrath (Im not saying that wrath is justified though) at Infinite Game Publishing, as opposed to the devs at Pirahna Games Incorporated.

[Livewyr]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

What about when you run into an entire team of them, and they are ALL running MC only modules.

I would kill them running Cbill only consumables or no consumables at all... (Although I'll probably have the Cbill Airstrike..)

[focuspark]

WolvesX, on 06 March 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Go hear him on NGNG: http://nogutsnogalaxy.net/

I honestly don't think that he is a greedy man that isn't willing or able to balance the game and intruduce Pay-to-win.

I think the moneymonkeys told him: "You shall make a cash cow item! Now! Or you WILL get fired and you get a new guy that is doing your job!"

Don't hit the hand, hit the heart.

Paul you are a nice guy, I hope they are not to hard on you!

- NO SUPPORT FOR PAY-TO-WIN -

EDIT: Better link to the podcast! http://nogutsnogalax...asts,devs-beer/

Greedy? No. Clueless and living in a vacuum of his own design? Yes.

I'm positive there are a ton of people pushing on him to find ways to generate more revenue. He has more than good game design to focus on; problem is the survivability game is predicated on the quality of the game play, regardless of how it generated revenue.

It is a fine line Paul and the design team has to walk with regards to game play decisions and revenue generation needs. I do think that Paul is looking at the money issue too closely because he's getting the most internal pressure in regards to revenue.

That said, losing sight of the good game design is an unforgivable sin for a game designer. Therefore, Paul is currently indefensible IMO.

[Super Mono]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

What about when you run into an entire team of them, and they are ALL running MC only modules.

That's the concern, entire teams running these modules in 8mans, and eventually community warfare. Once pay2win is in the game no one will take these seriously any more. It will no longer be pure PVP, it will become a race to who can buy the biggest advantage. PGI has aspirations of MWO becoming an eSPort but that is not going to happen with these pay2win modules.

[Stone Profit]

Super Mono, on 06 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Gold air strikes and gold artillery modules have already been announced. There will be more gold modules on the way that will also give great advantages to those that buy them. Players using the cbill versions needing two slots to equal one premium slot won't be able to compete.

Also, if you think coolant flush isn't a big advantage then have fun lowering your Elo score on the 19th.

If the real cash item is not in some way slightly better than the cbill version, what is the incentive to purchase it? I never use modules so it doesnt really matter to me personally. If you want to shell out real cash so you can also have the crappy crappy improved zoom or target decay module power to ya. I wont be cause I dont need em. I wont likely be getting coolant flush either, though I will likely pick up artillery and or airstrike cause they sound like fun. Im sticking to the original P2W, my TS3 and headset combo.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

What about when you run into an entire team of them, and they are ALL running MC only modules.

So what if they are? The CBill Air and Art hit harder and the standard modules give MUCH better sensor and targetting abilities. Likely if two groups meet of exactly like composition and skill, the all MC one loses the majority of the time.

[Yokaiko]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

I would kill them running Cbill only consumables or no consumables at all... (Although I'll probably have the Cbill Airstrike..)

You are better on that.

I'm betting against.

So you are going to eat 16 air-strikes and artillery barrages AND dodge the mechs all with a module induced heat advantage?

You go with your 360* modules.

[Fiachdubh]

Super Mono, on 06 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

You're going to get stomped by people that can make full use of coolant flush. You'll have to get coolant flush yourself to compete with the damage they can deal. At that point you'll be fully into the pay2win arms race and PGI will escalate it with better and more powerful premium modules.

Using it once or twice a match? I do not think so. Even with coolant flush if they are using a mech that needs it they are still at a disadvantage to a mech that does not run too hot. I am sure I will get stomped by people using coolant flush but they will have been the same people that were stomping me without coolant flush. Let them have it, it will be a distraction for them during combat.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MonkeyCheese, on 06 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Yup and pandoras box has now been cracked wide open.

EVERY GAME that I see the devs say "vanity items only" in reference to their cash shop devolves into this mess of p2w except EVE Online.

[Yokaiko]

Bubba Wilkins, on 06 March 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

So what if they are? The CBill Air and Art hit harder and the standard modules give MUCH better sensor and targetting abilities. Likely if two groups meet of exactly like composition and skill, the all MC one loses the majority of the time.

depending on how it works, faster may well equal better. That we don't know yet.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Bubba Wilkins, on 06 March 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

So what if they are? The CBill Air and Art hit harder and the standard modules give MUCH better sensor and targetting abilities. Likely if two groups meet of exactly like composition and skill, the all MC one loses the majority of the time.

nice assumption... based on what exactly?

[Super Mono]

Stone Profit, on 06 March 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

If the real cash item is not in some way slightly better than the cbill version, what is the incentive to purchase it? I never use modules so it doesnt really matter to me personally. If you want to shell out real cash so you can also have the crappy crappy improved zoom or target decay module power to ya. I wont be cause I dont need em. I wont likely be getting coolant flush either, though I will likely pick up artillery and or airstrike cause they sound like fun. Im sticking to the original P2W, my TS3 and headset combo.

Congratulations, you've justified the pay2win spiral that MWO is on the verge of entering.

It's just a tiny bit better so that people will want to buy it! This is only a small perk like the previous module so I'll buy that as well. Huh, this gives a slightly bigger boost, but it does cost more so that's fine! Damn, I'll win lots of matches with this, better pony up the cash for it!

And then MWO is nothing more but 20 bored people showing off how blinged their mechs are.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

depending on how it works, faster may well equal better. That we don't know yet.

We will know in two weeks. But considering their implementation of the Hero mechs, they have set a precedent that they are well aware of the line they are walking and have no intention of crossing it.

[Stone Profit]

Super Mono, on 06 March 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Congratulations, you've justified the pay2win spiral that MWO is on the verge of entering.

It's just a tiny bit better so that people will want to buy it! This is only a small perk like the previous module so I'll buy that as well. Huh, this gives a slightly bigger boost, but it does cost more so that's fine! Damn, I'll win lots of matches with this, better pony up the cash for it!

And then MWO is nothing more but 20 bored people showing off how blinged their mechs are.

How will paying for 1 extra module slot make you guaranteed to win? oh wait, IT WONT! but hey keep thinking it does its okay for you to be wrong.

Bubba Wilkins, on 06 March 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

We will know in two weeks. But considering their implementation of the Hero mechs, they have set a precedent that they are well aware of the line they are walking and have no intention of crossing it.

Bubba. You are NOT allowed to use rationality or evidence in these forums to make your point. Please go back to the logical world you came from.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 06 March 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

nice assumption... based on what exactly?

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

No. Arty and Air Strikes work differently.

Paul is going to post the details shortly.

Here's some highlights.

• There are cooldown timers. Cooldown timers make sure there is a space between shots and prevents a team coordinating a single massive strike.
  
• CB Version does more damage but is slower to target. 10,000 CB
  
• Version does less damage but is faster to target. 25
  
• Only one of each can be equipped.
  
• Only one user per match.
  
• Consumed when used.

[Super Mono]

Fiachdubh, on 06 March 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Using it once or twice a match? I do not think so. Even with coolant flush if they are using a mech that needs it they are still at a disadvantage to a mech that does not run too hot. I am sure I will get stomped by people using coolant flush but they will have been the same people that were stomping me without coolant flush. Let them have it, it will be a distraction for them during combat.

So now you've justified that you will get stomped, but it's ok, they'd stomp you anyway! They used gold ammo and gold sinks but it's ok, I was going to get stomped anyway! Who cares about a competitive game with no players abusing pay2win advantages, I was just going to lose anyway! I hope you enjoy being a farmed NPC for the premium player master race.

[Yokaiko]

Bubba Wilkins, on 06 March 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

We will know in two weeks. But considering their implementation of the Hero mechs, they have set a precedent that they are well aware of the line they are walking and have no intention of crossing it.

If they didn't intend on crossing it, MC only modules for the same effect and LESS slots wouldn't exist.

Edited by Yokaiko, 06 March 2013 - 09:25 AM.