128 replies to this topic

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

blinkin, on 08 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

read his signature. he doesn't want to be knocked off his throne by being asked to use some basic aiming skills.

HOW DARE WE DEMAND HE ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE TARGET HE IS FIRING AT!!!!11!!!!11!!!!!!1!!!!!!!111

what the **** are you talking about. I said it is easy to kill a 3L with good aiming, even more so now with less then good aiming.
I assume you are taking about how the ssrm flys out at all angles. I agree with the devs. Its suppose to fire at 45 degrees. They said they are working on that.

[Valaska]

They've already stated they are not going to fix the ECM.

[RoboPatton]

Valaska, on 08 April 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

They've already stated they are not going to fix the ECM.

Link please.

[DemonRaziel]

RoboPatton, on 08 April 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Link please.

http://mwomercs.com/...f-guardian-ecm/

[blinkin]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 08 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

what the **** are you talking about. I said it is easy to kill a 3L with good aiming, even more so now with less then good aiming.
I assume you are taking about how the ssrm flys out at all angles. I agree with the devs. Its suppose to fire at 45 degrees. They said they are working on that.

ok i do apologize.

most of the people who defend the 3L think that everything is perfectly fine. streaks, ECM, the screwed up hit profile, lag shield, the whole mess.

my beef is not with the 3L itself. i honestly think if we fix the issues with light mech combat in general and bring streaks back in line with normal weapons the 3L will mostly balance out. the 3L just happens to be where all of the major bugs and exploits have collected. the only issue that the raven itself has is the messed up hit profile, it is just being scapegoated for everything else.

i was stereotyping and i am sorry for that.

Edited by blinkin, 08 April 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[RoboPatton]

DemonRaziel, on 08 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...f-guardian-ecm/

Yeah, you're right!

At least it will be in a target-able hard point...

[ohtochooseaname]

A Jenner F can actually take out a 3L pretty easily if they leg it. The leg hitboxes are so large that they're hard to miss these days. The squishyness of the 3L's legs actually makes for a decent compensating factor. Those things blow off faster than you can sneeze at them, especially if the pilot is dumb enough to but streak ammo in them.

[AegisKay]

Improve the torso twist range of the Jenner and the 3L will be balanced. The Raven is deadly because it is impossible to escape and the lack of map pings makes it impossible for a pug team to pick up a Raven's location outside a visual scan. I can't even leg a Raven these days since they fixed hit box detection. The Raven can just out damage a Jenner, and the only thing the Jenner has for defense is its jump jets. The ECM Commando and Spider don't have the same problems because they're much slower and much easier to hit key components, especially with exposed heads and wider arm/torso base.

I hate to rant against the 3L but in my first 10 games in the 3L I survived 9 of 10 games and won them all. Its not balanced, not even I'm that good. I had to get rid of it just out of pride, its not fun to play with training wheels.

[Haitchpeasauce]

ohtochooseaname, on 08 April 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

A Jenner F can actually take out a 3L pretty easily if they leg it. The leg hitboxes are so large that they're hard to miss these days. The squishyness of the 3L's legs actually makes for a decent compensating factor. Those things blow off faster than you can sneeze at them, especially if the pilot is dumb enough to put streak ammo in them.

I have a Jenner F and that is a big IF. It's still hard to zero in on the legs (depending on situation) and if you meet a second enemy mech (at worst another 3L) then your Jenner F is boned.

This is an old, old discussion.

So I also run a 3L and it's definitely stronger than other lights. Mine is mastered with over 200k mech XP left over, and in that mech a KDR of 3.8. Overpowered? I think so.

In a perfect world I would change the following:

Reduce the maximum engine rating down from 295 to 245 (or at most 265).

Reduce the torso twist by 12%.

As it stands, the 3L has everything (except Jump Jets).

Edited by Haitchpeasauce, 10 April 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[DegeneratePervert]

PGI knows the 3L is the best light mech there is. They just don't care.

[BlackYoshi1230]

I pretty much lost most of my respect for the 3L months ago mainly because on some drops, a few others thought that I have to use Guardian as a crutch in the matter of "who had X amount of ECM or who had the leet fast mover squadron." No, I wanted to use it as a capture platform and the vanguard in information warfare, not the end-all-be-all light.

As much as I am irritated at the 2X or 4X as they are (or else I am completely doing them wrong, take your pick), I would like to say that they need to start getting on the same page as the 3L. At the least, I would start with upping the engine/speed cap on the 2/4X (hey, the devs did it with the Centurion and now we can get MSL bunnies that can start raising reliable hell, why not do it with the Raven?), then in either order, start retweaking ECM (as in not nullify reticle softlock, let missiles have a track/time penalty to lock, and somehow have BAP to be a LOT more reliable as a Counter-ECM piece) and give a damage buff to Machine Guns (so the 4X can have a chance).

[Tharkan Stuermer]

IrrelevantFish, on 08 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Actually, a fresh JR7-F will beat a fresh RVN-3L one-on-one. Streak damage is spread out, no matter how awesome you are, but a highly skilled pilot can focus the damage from beam weapons on a single location, and the JR7-F has six to the RVN-3L's three.

However, this is in a one-on-one duel and doesn't factor in LRM's or heavier, Streak-equipped mechs nearby. It also doesn't factor in that the Jenner probably isn't fresh when it engages, and will inevitably take heavy damage during the engagement, even if the 3L pilot sucks.

So I add my voice in saying that the 3L is OP.

No, it won't. As far as I noticed it, the NetCode is still broken, you won't get enough hits on the Raven to get him down, especially if you have a ping of > 150. In addition, the SSRMs will hit CT most of the time. You'll also run much hotter than the Raven. In addition, the Raven has a tactical advantage, and it is far more likely, that he will get reinforcements, and that the Jenner F won't => his team can't see on their minimaps, that he is in trouble. Usually, the Raven will anything but crush the Jenner in very short order, if the Jenner pilot isn't much better, than the Raven's.

[IrrelevantFish]

Tharkan Stuermer, on 11 April 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

Usually, the Raven will anything but crush the Jenner in very short order, if the Jenner pilot isn't much better, than the Raven's.

I am now aware of that, and I acknowledged my error in a later post.

Tharkan Stuermer, on 11 April 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

As far as I noticed it, the NetCode is still broken, you won't get enough hits on the Raven to get him down, especially if you have a ping of > 150.

I haven't noticed the Raven being any more prone to hit-detection bugs than other mechs, although my ping is usually ~125ms. I think much of what you're seeing is the result of favorable hit-box arrangement and the funky walk, not buggy net-code. It may look like you're doing less damage than you should, but that's just because it's getting spread out.

However, whatever they changed recently seems to have made 3Ls significantly less durable. They're still OP, but at least I can usually beat them one-on-one if I'm not in a light.

Tharkan Stuermer, on 11 April 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

In addition, the SSRMs will hit CT most of the time.

A lot of people say this, but I'm sure not seeing it, and this is from someone who's almost always on the receiving end. Maybe I'm just a statistical anomaly, but I've been seeing SSRMs drilling holes less often than I've seen them hitting everything but the CT.

An extreme but amusing example: I was in an XL-equipped CTF-1X with orange internals on my CT and dark-yellow armor everywhere else when I got wolf-packed by two 3Ls and a 2D. They ended up stripping off just about every scrap of armor I had, giving me the time to kill one of them and leg another before they finally finished me off ... by blowing off a side-torso.

[The Strange]

Target Rich, on 05 April 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Sorry grasshopper...the concept of allowing ecm/streaks on these two mechs combined with the slow turning radius and the inability to equip ANY countermeasures for those streaks....equals light mech swarms taking out all non atlas assaults at will...they simply play the slow turn radius and pump their streaks and medium lasers intothe assault back....

The assault is helpless....and that is NOT battletech...and has never been seen in MW play for twenty years or so...

Frankly...like I said...I love to play the lrm missile boats...and I have played streak boats before...because of the graphic engine not working with my laptop.

My game is now vanished....My missile boat does no significant damage to these lights...NOT EVEN KNOCKDOWN WITH a 4 LRM 15 direct hit...nor any damage whatsoever....Totally screwed up ....

I think this is the main issue people have with this build. "My LRM boat can't kill it from across the map." So what. Why is something bad just because you might have to get close to it to kill it? From all that I have read, LRMs were cut back because THEY used to be the abused weapon.

It really comes down to how you play the game. I have 2 Mechs that I like playing. One is a Raven 3L. I use regular SRM6 with Artemis, specifically so I can take down ECM equiped light mechs. It isn't really that hard. The other is a Dual AC/20 Jager, and I am a pretty good aim, and have legged many Raven 3Ls with it. And to be honest, I get legged a good deal in my Raven too.

I plan on trying out an Assault Mech as well, and I don't figure it will be any harder to take the legs off a Raven in that than it is in the Jager. Sometimes you get him, sometimes he gets you. I figure if people spent as much time practicing their aim as they did ranting on the forums, it would be a complete non-issue.

RoboPatton, on 08 April 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Well, 5 pages and 4+ "3L's are OP" threads should tell you something...

It tells me how many people want an easy win against a fast, manuverable Mech.

[Tharkan Stuermer]

The Strange, on 11 April 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think this is the main issue people have with this build. "My LRM boat can't kill it from across the map." So what. Why is something bad just because you might have to get close to it to kill it? From all that I have read, LRMs were cut back because THEY used to be the abused weapon.

It really comes down to how you play the game. I have 2 Mechs that I like playing. One is a Raven 3L. I use regular SRM6 with Artemis, specifically so I can take down ECM equiped light mechs. It isn't really that hard. The other is a Dual AC/20 Jager, and I am a pretty good aim, and have legged many Raven 3Ls with it. And to be honest, I get legged a good deal in my Raven too.

I plan on trying out an Assault Mech as well, and I don't figure it will be any harder to take the legs off a Raven in that than it is in the Jager. Sometimes you get him, sometimes he gets you. I figure if people spent as much time practicing their aim as they did ranting on the forums, it would be a complete non-issue.



It tells me how many people want an easy win against a fast, manuverable Mech.

That (and your sig) tells me, that your from the US, and that you have a low ping. If you don't, you're screwed. In MWO, that is. In real life, its the other way around, of course^^

[blinkin]

The Strange, on 11 April 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think this is the main issue people have with this build. "My LRM boat can't kill it from across the map." So what. Why is something bad just because you might have to get close to it to kill it? From all that I have read, LRMs were cut back because THEY used to be the abused weapon.

It really comes down to how you play the game. I have 2 Mechs that I like playing. One is a Raven 3L. I use regular SRM6 with Artemis, specifically so I can take down ECM equiped light mechs. It isn't really that hard. The other is a Dual AC/20 Jager, and I am a pretty good aim, and have legged many Raven 3Ls with it. And to be honest, I get legged a good deal in my Raven too.

I plan on trying out an Assault Mech as well, and I don't figure it will be any harder to take the legs off a Raven in that than it is in the Jager. Sometimes you get him, sometimes he gets you. I figure if people spent as much time practicing their aim as they did ranting on the forums, it would be a complete non-issue.



It tells me how many people want an easy win against a fast, manuverable Mech.

just read the title didn't you.

i have been on this thread since it was started. you can check my work but references to LRM are in total 0.00. the vast majority of the complaints come in reference to streaks and streak use. ECM is often mentioned in specific relation to streaks.

read before you open your speak hole.

[The Strange]

Yeah, buddy. I didn't quote any of your posts in my reply, did I? Where did I mention any of "your work"?

Maybe you should take your own advice and read something before you open your own speak hole.

And if you go back through the topic again, I'm sure you'll find the majority of it topic wasn't about streaks at all. Although several people did bring them up, as they always do when talking about the 3L. You might also note, that ECM WAS in fact talked about a lot more than streaks were, and very often all by itself with no reference to streaks what-so-ever. As to the LRMs, there was obviously a post about them in here, since I quoted it, and I responded to it with a comment not only based on this topic, but from reading many other topics complaining about the very same Mech.

I know you just like being rude to people, I have seen your "work" on the forums. But really, try taking your own advice and reading things first. Nice sig too. Is trying to insult me supposed to make me think that you are right?

Edited by The Strange, 11 April 2013 - 09:34 PM.

[blinkin]

The Strange, on 11 April 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Yeah, buddy. I didn't quote any of your posts in my reply, did I? Where did I mention any of "your work"?

Maybe you should take your own advice and read something before you open your own speak hole.

And if you go back through the topic again, I'm sure you'll find the majority of it topic wasn't about streaks at all. Although several people did bring them up, as they always do when talking about the 3L. You might also note, that ECM WAS in fact talked about a lot more than streaks were, and very often all by itself with no reference to streaks what-so-ever. As to the LRMs, there was obviously a post about them in here, since I quoted it, and I responded to it with a comment not only based on this topic, but from reading many other topics complaining about the very same Mech.

I know you just like being rude to people, I have seen your "work" on the forums. But really, try taking your own advice and reading things first. Nice sig too. Is trying to insult me supposed to make me think that you are right?

"I think this is the main issue people have with this build. "My LRM boat can't kill it from across the map." So what. Why is something bad just because you might have to get close to it to kill it?"

when you say stuff like this it tends to suggest that are refering to much more than one person. the main issue tends to be what people talk about the most. the main issue is not one small point that is only mentioned once and largely ignored by the main group.

i probably glossed over the LRM portions of his post mostly because that is not the primary subject being mentioned here. that was an oversight on my part.

most of this thread is about light mech versus light mech combat. the number of light mechs using LRMs is in my experience low. so that only leaves streaks since none of the other weapons care about ECM.

i don't throw out insults alone. they are usually there to draw attention to the real arguments. in most cases if people don't know how to face your argument they hide, BUT if you convince them they must defend themselves then you can get real debate. it is an underhanded tactic without a doubt, but there are more than a few on the forums that hide from any sort of real debate. so i am forced to smoke them out of their holes. and i usually make a good effort to display evidence that people are morons, not just baseless accusations.

[DEMAX51]

ohtochooseaname, on 08 April 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

A Jenner F can actually take out a 3L pretty easily if they leg it. The leg hitboxes are so large that they're hard to miss these days. The squishyness of the 3L's legs actually makes for a decent compensating factor. Those things blow off faster than you can sneeze at them, especially if the pilot is dumb enough to but streak ammo in them.

Nuh-uh. A Raven has 32 max leg armor, with 16 internal health, for a total of 48 HP. For both legs, that's 96 damage you have to do to kill the Raven.

A Raven shooting at a Jenner F's center torso, however (which is where about 99% of SSRMs make contact) only has to do a total of 66 damage to kill the Jenner.

You're telling me it's easier for a Jenner to do 96 damage to a Raven's legs (while taking all of the heat from laser weapons into consideration) than it is for a Raven to do 66 damage to a Jenner's much-larger-of-a-target center torso using an SSRM/Laser combo with much greater heat efficiency?

Yeah, I don't think so man.

Edited by DEMAX51, 12 April 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[DEMAX51]

The Strange, on 11 April 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

It tells me how many people want an easy win against a fast, manuverable Mech.

Really? Because it tells me that people want a well-balanced game that isn't dominated by a few superior builds. Played an 8-man drop lately? Because I play them all the time, and I don't think it's coincidence that the more competitive teams tend to run NOTHING but a combination of Raven 3Ls, Centurion 9Ds and Atlas D-DCs.