14 replies to this topic

[Headlessnewt]

So I bought a NARC to see how it presently works and went out to the sexy new training grounds. I was expecting the worst (though seeing as it's got the weight and crits of an SRM6, it'll have to be REALLY good to be situationally better, especially with a truly pitiful 6 ammo per ton).

First Thing to note: 270m range, missile travel time. That's the same range as an SRM with slightly improved accuracy, meaning hitting anything other than an assault mech is going to be hard in a real game unless you're within ~70m.

But anyway, I hit a target with it, and a neat little ping pops up over its head. Cool. So I leave it and wander around to hit the next target, leaving that target unkilled. As I went out of line of sight, the Narc'd target became no longer targetable. Narc'd up a second target and backed up a few steps to see my first target, and that's when the second thing struck me:

Second Thing to note: Narc has a very limited duration, maybe 30 seconds. VERY short, certainly not reliable in long-term engagements.

By now, as I'd missed a couple times learning about the miserable maximum range, I was pretty much out of my 6 ammo, but I did get one volley off with the Narc up and did some pretty noteworthy damage with dual artemis'd LRM20s. So that was nice.

A thing that won't come up in the training grounds: NARC is cancelled by ECM, just like everything else.

In short: For its weight, crit space and ammo per ton, as well as using up a Missile hardpoint, NARC is completely worthless.

Some ideas on fixing that:

1) Increase range, homing capability and ammo per ton. Make it so that those shots are fairly likely to connect if there's a clear sightline, and reduce the opportunity cost of each shot.

2) Increase the duration of the Narc Effect. This is frankly a pretty much mandatory change, 30 seconds is not long enough to actually be worth the weight and difficulty of hitting with it, especially compared to other weapons that could be mounted in that hardpoint. I would make it last 1 minute absolute minimum, and would consider letting the effect last 2 minutes or more.

3) Increase the depth of the Narc effect. This is me getting on my soapbox about reducing ECM's effects somewhat, but Narc really should work through ECM, and should provide targeting to all allies not currently being jammed by ECM, not just improved targeting to those who can see it. This, combined with a duration increase, would actually make it superior to TAG, rather than its current setup, which is 4 times as heavy, twice as bulky and harder to use for less gain.

While I don't think that Narc will ever be a 'good' choice so long as ECM jams it, I think any of these changes would be a big step toward making it a choice at all, because currently it's not.

[Sable Dove]

Simple solution: NARC makes the enemy hit targetable by any mech, at any range, even through ECM. No time limit; lasts until the component it's on is destroyed or takes significant damage.

Make it counter ECM, and it will often be worth it.

[Zyllos]

Just an FYI, I think you guys are behind on the patch notes...

NARC has no timer on it, anymore.

It lasts forever until 35 points of damage is taken on the mech. I do agree, however, that the 35 damage mechanic still needs to change.

[FrostCollar]

You missed a strange weakness of NARC as well, mentioned in the Command Chair "Breakdown" post on those things:

WEAPON LOCK TIME WITH TAG, NARC and ArtemisIV

TAG decreases weapon lock time by 50%

NARC decreases weapon lock time by 50%

ArtemisIV decreases weapon lock time by 50%

ArtemisIV has to have line of sight with the target in order to grant any bonuses

TAG and ArtemisIV work together to decrease weapon lock time by 75%

TAG and NARC work together to decrease weapon lock time by 75%

ArtemisIV will always replace any bonuses from NARC. Even if Artemis does not have line of sight.

MISSILE TRACKING BONUS WITH TAG, NARC and ArtemisIV

Tracking helps missiles retain lock on a target. It helps a little with stationary targets but it is mainly used to control the hit % on moving targets.

It follows the same rules as above with weapon lock time.

TAG and NARC work together.

TAG and ArtemisIV (with line of sight) work together.

ArtemisIV trumps NARC.

You read that right folks. If you have Artemis IV already, there's really no reason whatsoever to take NARC.

[TheRulesLawyer]

It should be a random result if it is destroyed after 35 damage. After 35 pts it has a chance, upto maybe falling off for sure at 70 damage. NARC vs ECM is more about ECM being OP. ECM should negate narc, but ECM needs to not prevent locks in the first place, just make them take longer. Also 6 shots is just silly.

[Corvus Antaka]

Yup. This is why everyone takes a TAG. NARC has been a kicking toy for 15 years though, and my question is

"why can no game developer figure out the balance conundrum that is .... NARC?"

[Fooooo]

I'd like narc to get a 2nd ability, however LRMS would probably have to be adjusted slightly to accompany it.

Basically you could fire it on the ground to act as a "Artillery Marker" for your mechs with LRMS.

It would mean if you targetted this beacon your lrms will go way up in the air and come almost straight down on the grid location the beacon is in. All spread over somewhat. Basically it would be used to break up a camp in a way.

Like say on frozen city where everyone hides behind the buildings near the dropship. A ground narc in that grid would mean your LRMS can now fire over the buildings, but will be spread by a lot....just like some long range arty barrage.

The changes to LRM's needed would probabaly be more ammo needed, and reductions in direct accuracy to compensate for more ammo.

Or cheat it a little and just have it use half ammo when firing at a ground narc (IE LRM 20 fires 20 rounds, but uses only 10 ammo when firing at ground narc.....unrealistic but easier than playing with normal locks accuracy etc)

It would give 2 systems more use in a way.....at least if it ended up working how I imagine it would.

Edited by Fooooo, 12 March 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[General Taskeen]

The duration is of note.

However, may I draw people's attention again to NARCs original (further) purpose as multi-function tool:

Quote

The Narc Missile Beacon is a missile homing utility that can be planted on enemy targets, causing friendly SRMs and LRM missiles (even those that do not traditionally have homing capabilities) to lock on to them. They are particularly useful when used in tandem with LRMs.

The Manuals further define this as missiles essentially 'auto-seeking' or being called to the beacon itself on the target, with regular SRMs (becoming quasi SSRM for a lot of weight, I.E. any SRM + NARC + NARC Missiles) and LRMs. In the 'rules' this is defined as an accuracy bonus due to rolling dice. In real-time terms (since we ain't rolling dice), and basing it off descriptions, it should more or less have auto-seek to some degree for it to be of any worth. If it did closer to 100% of its original purpose people would likely see it more often and a far more competitive option.

In order for missiles to auto-seek, it requires an upgrade of the missiles, another thing missing

Quote

Also SRMs and LRMs equipped to track the Narc homing signal cost twice as much as standard munitions.

Both are missing, so the NARC really only does 25% of its original purpose for 3 tons. That 25% is basically keeping the target visible without LOS, but even that doesn't last long. It is meant to be a powerful tool limited by range 270m, the same as the SRMs that auto-seek with it, but also for LRMs to call your team mate's missiles on to the target or your own. And thus countered by ECM from TT.

Its like PGI is afraid of having NARC being useful for its weight for some reason or improving its purpose isn't a high priority.

Also, this feature was available in Mech Warrior 3 in the case of SRMs. In MW:LL the NARC was giving both SRM and LRM auto-seeking the beacon.

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 March 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Roland]

HOW TO FIX NARC:
Make a Narc stick to a section, and stay active until that section of armor is destroyed

DONE.

Seriously, why the hell don't they just make it do this, given that it's how the narc is supposed to work? There seems to be some terrible fear that it will make the Narc beacon terribly overpowered.


If that is the case, then we can change it later. But at least TRY making it work as designed... because, throughout the entirety of beta so far, this weapon has been useless.

We don't need some crazy complex implementation of the system.. Just make it do what it is designed to do in TT.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

NARC should last until "it" is destroyed on the Mech or the section it is attached to is destroyed. If it's stuck in the enemies' left arm, why does it destruct if the enemy gets hit in the right arm? They need physics here, or to make it only count damage dealt to the section the NARC is actually sticking out of. Despite its buff, it's still largely a trash item that no one uses. No Light will ever take it over a Streak or SRM. What you'll see used instead is Tag lasers. Doesn't waste a more valuable missile slot. No travel time problem. Less weight vs Tag. No ammo. No accuracy problem.

I personally don't get why a NARC is 3 tons while a Tag is 1 ton with no ammo/heat. SRM 6 is 3 tons. Streak is 1.5, half a NARC. Then the ammo is 6 per ton. Less makes sense, but hello, Streak+SRM is 100 per ton. Even with an SRM 6, that's 16.6 shots per ton, vs NARC's 6. 12 or 18 missiles per ton would have been much more fair.

All in all, NARC, as always, isn't yet worth the trouble or its weight. You'll never see a 3L Raven using his NARC hole for it(which is what is originally intended with the variant) instead of just slotting a Streak there instead.

[General Taskeen]

Bluten, on 12 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

I personally don't get why a NARC is 3 tons

As outlined in my post above. That's why NARC is 3 tons in TT, however they forgot to make it do those things, neglected to do so, or didn't know how to implement it... even though there are other games they know have it working that way.

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 March 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

My personal spin on this.

NARC should have a special munition that allows you to track an enemy target. Once tagged with this round it appears on all the enemies minimaps, ECM does not counter it. It will not allow you to target the enemy if you couldn't normally, nor does it affect missiles, it just lets the enemy team keep an eye on the victim's location.

[CMGrendel]

Anyone could see that NARC is useless in a PUG game.

Is it useless in a premade?

My experience so far says, "Emphatically yes".

But who knows what devious use the MWO team have come up with? Maybe they use it to tag mechs and then instagib them with their dedicated LRM boats?

I certainly hope so, The other possibility makes me shudder.

[4er3BaPa]

Headlessnewt, on 06 March 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

1) Increase range
2) Increase the duration of the Narc Effect
3) Increase the depth of the Narc effect.

1 - yes, TAG upgraded, why the NARC not?
2 - yes, LRM flytime is too big, only one-two hit approach...china battery in beacon power?
3 - no, it's not ecm-warfare device, supporting only

[FrostCollar]

CYBRN4CR, on 12 March 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Because of the darn QQers and people scarred by Artemisageddon complaining about LRMs being OP, wanting them to be support weapons, and nerfed hard because they take no skill to use....... as if ECM wasn't enough of a boon for their cause.....

As the post I quoted states, Artemis and NARC don't interact at all. It's a non-issue.