186 replies to this topic

[Endgame124]

PanchoTortilla, on 07 March 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

But then you have situations like a Spider challenges a Daishi to a duel. Daishi hits the Spider with a pulse laser. Spider jumps over a hill, finds a hiding place in a cave and shuts down for the rest of the match and ROFLs with troll face.

The Dashi has three options - 1) don't shoot at the spider and let the teammate in the dasher engage the spider. 2) Shoot and kill the spider before it can run away. Hitting the spider with a UAC / 20 will probably take it down in one volley. 3) chase spider until Dashi is shot by another mech, thus triggering a grand melee and allowing it. While not all of them are applicable there are a number of zellbringen rules could be code implemented as well, as seen below:

¹⁾A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.
^{(The Dashi doesn't have to accept from the spider if a non damage based rule is initiated)}
2)No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.

(Module use of airstrikes or artillery would nullify the duel)
³⁾Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.

(Spider runs away, and out of sight and challenge is void)
⁴⁾Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.

(Spider runs further than 1000m and challenge is void)

Edited by Endgame124, 07 March 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

On the "clan tech on IS robots" thing, apparently you can't mix and match. My guess is it's either going to be that they're balanced but different, or that it is going to be 1 star vs. 2 lances, or 2 stars vs. 3 lances. But yeah, don't envy the ppl doing the balancing either way haha.

[Rogue Jedi]

I would like to see people not automatically getting access to clan tech, have Clan Mechs available for MC purchases, and only become available for cbill purchase after you have scored damage against a specific variant equal to, for example, destroying 3 of that class. this makes Clan tech a reward for experience, or a purchasable perk.

I also suggest the same approach with Clan components, if for example you destroy an arm containing a Clan ERPPC you then get 1 available for purchase, this would bring this game into line with previous MechWarrior games were by you get Chassis and components as battlefield salvage

[Dvergar]

They could also bump the timeline along further.

While clan tech was better, the IS produced a significant number of technologies. There are quite a lot of items in the advanced rules that are IS only. It would bring the choice between "less options but better quality" and "less quality but a ton of options".

[Rasako]

you guys need to calm your tabletop and lore hardons, the game can not be balanced like that because it wont work in this type of setting, in all honesty they should just bring out clan mechs and not allow actual clan tech other than the mechs themselves to be used and force them to use IS tech, makes it a lot simpler and completely throws that "clan weapons are better" ******** out the window

[tuokaerf]

I could see some of the "weaker" mechs losing community interest. I still feel that the Stalker, Atlas, Cataphract, Catapult, Raven, and some of the upcoming mechs (Highlander, etc) can be competitive vs. clan tech.

[Terror Teddy]

Dvergar, on 07 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

They could also bump the timeline along further.

While clan tech was better, the IS produced a significant number of technologies. There are quite a lot of items in the advanced rules that are IS only. It would bring the choice between "less options but better quality" and "less quality but a ton of options".

Exactly.

A weird comparison would be people with custom cars vs factory made supercars.

The supercars are limited to what you can do due to their tech level but their performance is superior. The custom cars can never reach the potential of a supercar but they can specialize and become better within certain fields,

I do think WEAPONS should be able to traverse the sides but there should be conversion costs to un-pod or re-pod them.

The clans might not like to use many of the IS items but there are some that can be of interest. And the LRM20 will be the most sought item on an LRM boats wish list,

Essentially SSRM20 with 1 kilometer range at 50% the IS weight.

[Sierra19]

Well, one lore aspect that would work toward balance is that the clans fought in stars of 3 mechs, while the IS fought in lances of 4 mechs, so IS players would have a numbers advantage, to offset inferior tech, which may, or may not balance the issue in of itself. That may be a good way to balance things out, without screwing with clan tech too much, because if clan tech is the same, why bother with the inclusion of it at all?

The way the mech lab works removes the deficiencies that IS mechs suffered from in lore, namely the ease with which we can customize our mechs with armor, heatsinks, structure, guidance, and weapons. In BT lore, swapping weapons like we do in the mech lab was a really big deal, requiring a lot of modification, and forget about changing the internal structure, because the mech basically had to be built with it.

[Teralitha]

Jay Kerensky, on 07 March 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

One group of IS mechs should face 2 groups of Clans - wait for it......

Then the Clans should have to bid off mechs to see which group gets to fight that battle.

The losing bid group then gets batched into the next Clan vs IS match.

clan players actually having to act like a real clanner? oh they wont like that.... most just want the good tech and dont really care about the lore....

[Terror Teddy]

Sierra19, on 07 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

The way the mech lab works removes the deficiencies that IS mechs suffered from in lore, namely the ease with which we can customize our mechs with armor, heatsinks, structure, guidance, and weapons. In BT lore, swapping weapons like we do in the mech lab was a really big deal, requiring a lot of modification, and forget about changing the internal structure, because the mech basically had to be built with it.

Agreed, this was more for the Clans as they just switched "pods" but here's how I view the game to have changed from the tabletop or perhaps even during the tabletop due to a mechlab being FUN.

-IS mechs are now easy to customize due to be simple pieces of tech with "primitive" weapons and clunky internal gear and upgrades.

-Clans can switch weapons just as simple but require "pods" but gain the bonus taht **** weights less. They are also less customizable with their internals due to being so bloody advanced (more protection and 50% less internal space taken).

So that part has changed but I feel it also makes them DIFFERENT because in the TT the clans were essentially the ONLY ones that could change weapons on the fly and the IS could have old crappy gear and even their internals could hardly be changed without a complete rebuild.

IS - More Flexible
Clan - Less flexible but technologically superior.

Teralitha, on 07 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

clan players actually having to act like a real clanner? oh they wont like that.... most just want the good tech and dont really care about the lore....

If you want the goodies of the clans you have to take the bad pill as well.

Just implement harsh cash and XP penalties for non-clannish behavior.
-No focus firing by group members
-Do not gain assistance from teammates
-Gain bonus XP for taking down enemies alone
-Loose XP for assisting a teammate
etc...

[Royalewithcheese]

Teralitha, on 07 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

clan players actually having to act like a real clanner? oh they wont like that.... most just want the good tech and dont really care about the lore....

First, your lancemates fired on me, so my star can return fire. And secondly, you must be a Clan warrior for zellbringen to apply and you're not. And thirdly, zellbringen is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 07 March 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Royalewithcheese, on 07 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

First, your lancemates fired on me, so my star can return fire. And secondly, you must be a Clan warrior for zellbringen to apply and you're not. And thirdly, zellbringen is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

Good one. But not quite right. The more they fought the IS the more zelbrigen lapsed due to underhanded tactics by the IS.

Quote

The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition.

Basically they dont HAVE to accept a challenge against IS - but I would suspect that clanners mentality of not being inferior freeborn should influence their judgement.

[Sierra19]

Another way to do it would be to have your omni chassis cost a fortune. Take the MadCat for instance. The IS currently has 4 Catapult variants in game, so have the MadCat chassis cost 4 times as much, and require you to purchase various loadouts to level your mech, or just have the xp cost 4 times as much for all of the efficiencies. I just threw those number out there, but you get the idea. Levelling a clan mech won't work the same, due to the omni pods being able to turn it into essentially any variant you wish.

[xhrit]

Madcat base price is 24 mill c-bills.

75 mil c-bills to master the madcat pilot tree.

Adding clan gear to MWO is the equivalent of upping the level cap in traditional mmos.

[ragingmunkyz]

Sierra19, on 07 March 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Another way to do it would be to have your omni chassis cost a fortune. Take the MadCat for instance. The IS currently has 4 Catapult variants in game, so have the MadCat chassis cost 4 times as much, and require you to purchase various loadouts to level your mech, or just have the xp cost 4 times as much for all of the efficiencies. I just threw those number out there, but you get the idea. Levelling a clan mech won't work the same, due to the omni pods being able to turn it into essentially any variant you wish.

xhrit, on 07 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Madcat base price is 24 mill c-bills.

75 mil c-bills to master the madcat pilot tree.

Adding clan gear to MWO is the equivalent of upping the level cap in traditional mmos.

I'm sorry, but these ideas are just terrible. You realize you are both advocating making MWO unequivocally P2W right? I don't mind how long it takes to level a mech and earn c-bills right now; gxp could use a boost, but the money and mech xp are alright. Adding mechs that are significantly overpowered by design to the game, and then making them cost 4 times as much is not balance. All that does is make is so the pay to winners will shell out MC to skip that process. In traditional mmos, you can't enter your credit card information to skip the leveling process entirely. Fail idea is fail.

Look, I get it. Many of the old TT crowd would like to see this game reflect the lore, but exceptions need to be made for the sake of creating a balanced, competitive environment. I have yet to see one idea in here that would realistically work to balance what is a tactical, skill-based shooter, not a TT dice game. I'd say at least half of the posts in this forum are players talking about how to balance the current mechanics, this is the one thread I've seen asking for the opposite. If you think you've seen complaining now, try throwing a bunch of mechs with an "I Win" button installed. You cannot properly reflect the lore because the lore pretty much outright says that there ISN'T a balance; the clan tech is just outright better, zero drawbacks. All of these plans sound like they could work for private, "role-playing" servers, but they would break the main game so hard it would be unplayable.

TL:DR? PGI is trying to make this game an e-sport, not a renaissance faire.

[Ph30nix]

Rogue Jedi, on 07 March 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

I would like to see people not automatically getting access to clan tech, have Clan Mechs available for MC purchases,

no, just no.

havn't you learned from the rage and flames over a simple Coolant flush? You tell people they want any type of access to clan tech they will have a massive grind VS the people who spent money? If Clan tech ends up being as supperior to IS tech as people are worried about your just telling the Non Cash spenders they get to spend a few weeks slamming their face against a wall.

[Pihoqahiak]

Endgame124, on 07 March 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I'd say don't even give clan players the OPTION to not use Zellbrigen - force it in the game code. Clan player A damages IS Mech B. Clan Player A's weapons now only deal damage to IS Mech B and deal 0 damage to all other enemy mechs, unless another IS mech (say IS mech C) damages clan player A.

Just make it one of the downsides of playing the clans.

I think it would be better to penalize Clan players for not fighting according to the rules of Zellbrigen through an "honor" currency system of some sort. If they damage an opponent, they need to stick on that one until it's destroyed, if they damage any other opponent before then they suffer an earnings penalty similar in some way to how team kills work now, although it should factor in damage as well as destruction. If a Clan player just goes around blasting every enemy in sight, then they will not end up earning anything from the battle, possibly even make it so they could lose more of whatever currency they decide to use for Clanners than they earned from a match if they are dishonorable enough.

[Taemien]

I don't believe Clans should drop with less people. Its too much complexity to the match making code which is already probably bloated, and addition those 2 extra people will make all the difference. What it means if 9 mechs are focusing on 9 mechs, 1 is getting focused by 3. This is best case scenario of course. What is actually going to happen is alot worse.

The fix to clans is to disable sharing of targeting information. A clan mech would only be able to see what they have LOS to unless a mech is Tagged or Narc'd. Change their LRMs so they do not follow terrain and are direct fire only. And then you have a faction and tech that is balanced against Inner Sphere.

Try it sometime. Get 7 friends and launch in a 8v8 and only target what you can see. See how well the team does. Now you're going to wish you had ER Mediums that did 7 damage to compensate.

[Endgame124]

ragingmunkyz, on 07 March 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Look, I get it. Many of the old TT crowd would like to see this game reflect the lore, but exceptions need to be made for the sake of creating a balanced, competitive environment. I have yet to see one idea in here that would realistically work to balance what is a tactical, skill-based shooter, not a TT dice game. I'd say at least half of the posts in this forum are players talking about how to balance the current mechanics, this is the one thread I've seen asking for the opposite. If you think you've seen complaining now, try throwing a bunch of mechs with an "I Win" button installed. You cannot properly reflect the lore because the lore pretty much outright says that there ISN'T a balance; the clan tech is just outright better, zero drawbacks. All of these plans sound like they could work for private, "role-playing" servers, but they would break the main game so hard it would be unplayable.

TL:DR? PGI is trying to make this game an e-sport, not a renaissance faire.

I don't know what you're paying for, but I'm buying Premium time and hero mechs to support a battletech simulator. Part of the battletech simulation is Clan's Tech *face stomping* IS tech, leading to 5 years of utter and complete clan domination of the IS. The best games in TT were when I was running 12-24 mixed tech (3025 and 3050) IS mechs vs 10 Clan mechs. The game itself might be balanced with either IS or Clan winning, but there was no doubt the clans were *vastly* superior.

The less Battletech simulator MWO becomes, and the more generic fighty robot it becomes, the less interested I I'll get. PGI is already stretching it by allowing such customization on the IS chassis, which leads to total non canon builds like 6x SRM 6 Catapults or 6x PPC Stalkers. Making Clans just another set of mechs no different than the IS stuff would really kill the Battletech simulator.

Edited by Endgame124, 07 March 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Clan Mechs are why I was holding out for rearm/repair. Making the things 3x the price of IS mechs to repair would make them the sort of thing you don't want to bring out too often.

Other then that though, I don't see clan tech being OP beyond the clan DHS and Clan LRM having no min range. Clan lasers have better range, but most fights devolve into brawls with ranges usually being about 300m anyway, so all that extra range is moot.

And as we've seen, the TT BV values are useless in trying to balance MWO, because a Jenner can kill an Atlas with little effort despite being 1/3 the Atlas' BV.