186 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

The one thing I've never seen discussed when it comes to balancing the Clans is heat. Heat is the great field-leveling device that I am sure PGI will use. Why? Double heat sinks are only 1.4 heat sinks (except max 10 in the engine). This is going to kill Clan Mechs. They will run out of free slots LONG before they run out of free tons.

Most clan mechs use an XL engine, FF armor and Endo Steel. This gives them 29 free slots to play with. If they switch to a standard engine they get 33. That means they can mount a whopping 26 heat sinks (10 engine + 16 external). If they drop FF Armor and Endo steel, they can mount an additional 7 (total = 33). If they carry a 400 level engine, they can mount 6 more in the engine (total = 39).

An IS mech can mount 30 (if they are missing 1 actuator in the arm, otherwise 28. This is 10 engine + 6 external engine (from a 400 engine) + 14 or 12 structure heatsinks, depending on actuators).

Recap:
A Clan mech with a 400 standard engine and ONLY double heatsinks can carry 39 heatsinks. This means it dissipates 60.6 heat per 10 seconds. (hps = 6.06)

An Inner Sphere with a 400 standard engine and ONLY double heatsinks can carry 30 heatsinks (if it has 1 less arm actuator). This means it dissipates 48 heat per 10 seconds. (hps = 4.8)

This means the Clan mech can, at MOST, dissipate 26.25% more heat per second than an Inner Sphere mech.

Given this, Clan pilots will be faced with a difficult decision between adding guns or heatsinks. They will run out of free space long before they run out of free tons.

Does this mean clans will be completely balanced? Probably not. However it does cut back on their superiority a little bit, especially if the devs decide that clan weapons will generate more heat (typically what has been done in previous MW titles).

[bucurmish]

I don't know if anyone suggested this before: before a 8 clan v 12 IS match every player has to ready 2 mechs (one clan and one IS) and will be placed randomly in either team. That way one would get to play both IS and Clan mechs . One match u would play IS , the next you would be with the Clans and you would level up both factions of mechs this way without one feeling underused.

[Merky Merc]

Balancing clan v IS with zellbriggen or asymmetric numbers or whatever would be terribly convoluted. If Clan tech and IS tech never mix, I will go clan and exploit the crap out of their "honor rules". If the only way I can use a clan mech is with an MC purchase, I will do so and join the ranks of those individuals who enjoy derisively slandering the "space poors" and I will obliterate all the IS mechs with my vastly superior mech that they don't have access to. If the game stays on timeline and IS players are actually expected to play just to get stomped? Well, I guess there won't actually be a game to play any more as no one outside of a handful of BT masochists is going to want to deal with that.

[Mangonel TwoSix]

It is a huge dilemma and the OPs idea is not horrible. I just don't see how they can be balanced. I don't really like the numbers advantage because in game modes like conquest that gives the IS a huge advantage.

You can't balance it with role play by making the clan pilots engage one on one and yada yada.

I have to admit I can't come up with a way to balance IS vs Clan in single drops and have yet to see an idea that really would work.

Maybe you can balance it with an economy for community warfare. But without repair and rearm that won't work either.

Maybe give the IS side a tonnage boost but leave the numbers of players even?

[Grizley]

I like the asymmetrical team size for balance best.

We also need game modes that are something like Attacker and Defender, not Attacker and Attacker. One team has to destroy or capture a target in X minutes. Early on the Attacker should be Clan almost exclusively, and that gives the IS the advantage of defending. It's always easier to defend than attack. There can even be things like static defenses in the form of turrets and walls.

As far as game types MWO is in the 1990s. Pretty much every other game out there is light years ahead in terms of objective based warfare. Even the stupid Arathi basin copy mode is garbage, 90% of the time the team that sticks together and just kills the enemy team wins the match. It takes long enough for someone with 4 points capped to win that the blob of murder team has plenty of time to kill most/all of the enemy mechs. If one team is down to 2 mechs and has 4 cap points the team with with 7 mechs left can hit 3 of the 4 enemy cap points at at most have an even fight.

[Taemien]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call some of you out.

Asking for asymmetrical sides 12v10 or 5v8, or what have you is only being asked by players who want an easy win versus Clan. I am very well known for being anti-clan, especially in MWLL. I would only ever be caught in a Madcat in that game if I was mechless and managed to kill a pilot. Then I'd only ever use the thing to run back to a mechbay to sell it off for a Bushwhacker.

Point is, I don't like Clan, and I probably won't use them. But I want the matches to be even. 12v12 or 8v8. Make the clans have less players and they will be at a SEVERE disadvantage. Their weapons will NOT be able to compensate for the fact there is less mechs in play on their side. They would have less players to fufill the roles needed and would just get utterly shredded apart by massive Inner Sphere forces.

I've given a means to Balance the clans without Rearm and Repair (which would do nothing to balance them anyway). Take away the ability to share targeting data (no C3) unless the target is Tagged or Narc'd, and do not allow their LRMs to fire indirectly. And you have a Balanced techbase to work with. That's all that needs to be done. Its simple and effective.

[Davers]

The whole '5v8' assumes the Clans have better pilots and bonuses from pulse weapons and such. Since we aren't rolling dice to hit, this may not be the best way to balance things.

I'm sorry to everyone who thinks Clan should be straight up better than IS. I know that's how it is in the lore, but it doesn't make for a good game if there is one uberfaction.

[WarGruf]

Did everyone miss the command chair post about loyalty points... It'll cost you to change factions etc... Hmm perhaps I read too much.

Reckoning It'll be join one or the other you know, and sorry only read the front page replys. just incase its been said.

Oh and people mentioning Zellbringgen / Honor rules, they only apply to honorable combatents not derzga scum If YOU, yes, YOU "IS" pilots break the RoE then we "Clan" can rain pain on you as Zellbriggen wont apply.

Wa wa waaaaaa.

Just saying.

Edited by WarGruf, 07 March 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[FupDup]

Time to quote myself from a different thread:

FupDup, on 07 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

8v5 sounds wonderful on paper, but let's actually analyze within the context of MWO's current gameplay (as opposed to a board game which this game shares very little in common with our current FPS-gameplay except for story, names, and art style).


For starters, we've got small maps. At first you might think that this would help the spheroids by negating the Clan's energy weapon range advantage. If you look a little deeper, you'll notice that very few battles involve all 8 IS members of each team shooting simultaneously. It's a bunch of skirmishes featuring about 1-4 mechs most of the time. Cramming 8 mechs into one area will be a lot harder for the spheroids than it will be for the Clanners to fit only 5 mechs into one area...and getting them to all coordinate (more humans = more room for error). The Clanners will almost always have more of their team's firepower available to bear at any given moment than 8 IS'ers.

On larger maps like Alpine, the 8-player-cramming thing won't be as much of a problem (if one at all). However, now the Clanners get their range advantage. I don't think I have to elaborate on what would happen to the 8 IS mechs in this situation.

Regardless of map size, MWO's doubled armor favors Clanners much more than the IS. A lot of Clan stock mechs normally have craptastic armor, but here they get double that. Their superior damage negates the double armor of their IS opponents pretty easily, especially when focused fire is used. Also, the notion that Clan (and IS) Omnimechs can't get their armor (and other internals) modified is false. Omnis can goof with internals freely, but the moment they do so they merely lose all Omni capabilities and revert to a standard battlemech. People are still gonna min/max with Clan mechs just as much as they do with IS mechs.


As for Zellbrigen, which people often bring up as an attempt to counteract this obnoxious OPness, something you have to remember is that a Clanner is only honorbound to follow Zell so long as his/her opponent(s) also follow it. The second their enemy breaks Zell is the second that Clanners are greenlit to do whatever they feel. So that means no focus-fire for the spheroids unless they want to invite the Clanners to return the favor.




TL;DR: 8v5 favors Clanners in almost all conditions and so does double armor. Zellbrigen wouldn't help a thing. 12v10 is even worse because it assumes that each Clan mech is only 20% better than an IS mech (WRONG on every possible level).

[Nutlink]

I wouldn't mind if the Clans were stronger and the IS had more players. Or, barring that, having some sort of BV setup.

As for putting Clan weapons on IS mechs, I'd love to see some sort of penalty for that. Lower ammo counts due to an attempt to use something that's not meant for it, or more heat generated due to new wiring, I don't care what the reasoning is. You want that Clan Gauss Rifle instead of your IS model? Fine, but that extra weight you saved will end up going towards more ammo if you want to keep the same number of rounds. Want to save a ton on the ER PPC? Cool, just expect to redline a little quicker.

Of course, all that would be negated if the Clan mechs were on par with the IS mechs.

[Jetfire]

There are ways to balance things. Lock Clan mechs into full upgrades, why would a clanner stoop to IS tech? Slower cycle times and higher heat. Lower drop numbers than IS. Less backup options. Less teamwork like no C3.

[Utilyan]

This is my personal opinionated short sighted bias.............

Mechwarrior 2 clans > TT-clans

TT-clans are klingons wanabe's.

Mechwarrior 2 clans......put BT on the map. We wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for Mechwarrior 2.

You can watch gameplay vids of mechwarrior 2 on youtube........they are not klingons.

In mechwarrior 2 everyone was a freebirth, scrub, toad.....you earn your way out.....and everyone knew the sibko was a huge victory orgy thats why they all want to be in it.

In TT folks are grown out of test tubes, sibko was some genetic bank......and your a fk klingon.

LOL


In mechwarrior 2 you had a mission the priority is the mission...with objectives.....you blow the enemy up and leave....

In BT you have a batchall/ zellwiggy, qua' pla where you challenge the enemy to duel in simba's circle of life....and your a fk klingon.



Im curious whats the take MWO going to go with. I'd prefer they wrote something up themselves.

Maybe I need to be directed to clan novels or something to understand the klingon mechs.
Someone please change my opinion. thanks.



I was under the impression when clans showed up all uber and OP the IS fought back, I didn't know they balled up into the corner of a room and beg for balance. At least put a historical mode so we can get the full experience.

[Noobzorz]

FupDup, on 07 March 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Time to quote myself from a different thread:

A bunch of good points.

The real issue, and this is the humdinger before which Lore must die, is that no one, and I mean no one, is going to want to play IS over the super cool OP future-tech clan mechs.

It is not fun to be part of a big gaggle of folks indulging a few people in a cool game where they get to live out their power fantasies. You're basically filling the role that AI normally would. That's why in Juggernaut modes in FPS games, you become him when you kill him. Because it would be boring as hell for the 7 dudes trying to kill the invincible super soldier if when they nailed him, they got 10 points and got to carry along. And in the unlikely event they are successful, and they pound this poor guy into dust, how is he having fun?

The game needs to be kept symmetric, or you introduce a whole new dimension to balance. PGI would be wise to avoid spending too many resources on a mode like this.

Edited by Noobzorz, 07 March 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Balance clan stuff... i dunno there must have been hundreds of ideas in the last 1.5 years.
In lore the IS have the chance to beat clans because clans are idiots - that fight wars but do not now anything about tactics.
because they are simple minded ... the hammer is the soulution for any problem they may encounter.

In tabletop you have two ways... force them to youse zell and honour level - that gives you a really good advantage. Or you balance things with battleValue.

The only way i see actuall in MWO is large scale matches. Based on my experience in a large scale BattleTech szenario... i was able to beat 5 stars of clan mechs with 2 companys of the is. I had lesser tonage, lesser numbers and lesser battle value - but i had more experience and could used a couple of good tactics.

I don't think that 10 vs 12 or 8 vs 7 or anything else will do any good.
Another option... could be that clan weapons are not more powerfull as is weapons...but are less durable and have a slightly lower RoF. So you have lighter more fragile weapons with no real advantage in terms of DPS

[Mazzyplz]

Congzilla, on 07 March 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Let IS mechs use clan tech, problem solved.

how is this solving anything when inner sphere mechs have rigid hardpoints and the clan ones are omnimech?
they would still be worse even with clan tech.


make the clan mechs have horrible turning radius, horrible torso twist speed, horrible arm convergence, horrible engine sizes (just enough to keep their 'fast' mechs from dying)
and also don't let them switch targets until their target is dead

make the omnimech flexible like they used to be but give them limited number of hardpoints and a reason to put stuff other than missiles, people shouldn't be using a nova cat to fire missiles because energy boats run so hot in this game

make their weapons fire slower and more powerful but not by a lot


then the extra armor and extra firepower don't add up to much.
we could even have 12v12
even keep clan tech only for the clans


ps. another idea, clan mechs should have less basic and elite proficiencies to unlock, they should require a lot more xp and be worse than the IS basic and elite skills

Edited by Mazzyplz, 08 March 2013 - 12:38 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

If they don't give us mixtech, no one's gonna play IS. Literally, no one. You'll maybe see some die-hards, trying their best in clan refits of IS mechs, like the atlas upgrade, but everybody else is gonna be clan.

This would kinda defeat the whole purpose of having them spend over a year working on IS tech, the beautiful mechs we have so far, and all the balancing we've seen. So mixtech obviously can't be excluded.

How will they solve it? I don't know, but they'll include mixtech.

[Varancar]

I kinda like the concept of slowly accumulating scraps to build your own omnimech. Say you might get a piece of a Timberwolf one match and another piece of a Mad Dog in another match etc

[Dataman]

Harmin, on 07 March 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Personally I want the IS mechs to be as disadvantaged against clan mechs as they were in the lore/books. 1 on 1 with equal tonnage, a clan mech should totally outclass an IS mech.

-Armin

If that's the case, everyone will took shadowcat instead of centurion, vulture instead catapult, and daishi instead awesome. And VOILAA! Omnimechwarrior online.

[Harmin]

Dataman, on 08 March 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

If that's the case, everyone will took shadowcat instead of centurion, vulture instead catapult, and daishi instead awesome. And VOILAA! Omnimechwarrior online.

I also don't think that clan mech / tech should be easily available to people. There should be some real limitations to that.

[TK42Kahn]

Dear PGI,

Please dish out clan chassis and components as:

1-Salvage from Dev kills

2-Tournament Performance

3-Instead of Salvage Bonus

4-Other stuff you have probably already thought of and written off...or in.