186 replies to this topic

[Zaptruder]

This game needs to be balanced on several fronts. At the individual level, at the tactical level and at the metagame level.

At the indivdual level, Inner Sphere mechs are never going to be balanced with clan mechs one on one. The lore isn't like that, the TT rules aren't like that, and for the sake of retaining that interesting dynamic, this game shouldn't be about that either.

At a tactical level, the easiest solution is faction based. Clan teams and Innersphere teams completely segregated. That'll allow us to have 4v8, or 5v8 or 10v14 or whatever ratio the gameplay guys determines is most appropriate.

The problem... exists at the meta level. The reality is, players are going to be both clan and innersphere players.

But players naturally prefer feeling a sense of superiority; choosing the more powerful mechs (not necessarily the most powerful, but ones that are certainly competitive at a 1 on 1 level with the most powerful; so in current game terms that means mechs that have been fully upgraded; ES, Ferro, DHS, XL, etc as appropriate).

So even if players are able to play both factions on the same account; it creates a metagame problem where players end up in their clan mechs most of the time.


So how do you solve this? How do you incentivize players to climb back into their innersphere mechs to restore a metagame balance; where you can still see an equal number of clan and innersphere players?


The solution might not be too far away at all; the developers have already mentioned they're planning on incorporating a "Dropship mode" down the line; where players queue up multiple mechs and drop again after the one they're in blows up; until they run out of mechs in their queue.

Taking that and applying it to Innersphere mechs... while the mech power doesn't go up, the player power goes up instantly. Suddenly, there's a large incentive to play on the Innersphere side if you're a personally competitive player; because you get a free life!


The upside of this solution is that it will gel quite well with mechanics to be introduced, the lore and the general asymmetrical feel of innersphere and clan mechs, without creating unnecessary and arbitrary rulesets (like enforcing zellbriggen).

In the projected timeframe of clan mech launch; 12v12 should already be out.

If it's a clan v innersphere match, you could have 10 clans vs 12 innersphere; keeping in line with the lore based cluster of units.

The reason you'd do 10 clan vs 12 innersphere is because having a redrop isn't equal to having 2 mechs; it's somewhat less, due to the fact that you'll be out of place when the redrop occurs; your team will be getting cut up by Clan mechs and it'll take a few moments for you to reach the front lines again for reinforcement.

So it'll create a intersting gameplay dynamic, where the first wave of IS mechs are there to soften up the clans as much as possible; while the objective for the clanners are to cut down the IS as swiftly as possible without compromising their battlefield endurance (ammo/armour/consumables)... and when the second wave gets on, then the real fight to the death begins; fresh IS mechs against weakened clan mechs.

[Tarman]

Interesting proposal. Clan-fans I think would relish the chance to go fullbore into the dirtside playstyle of that faction, and it keeps the IS kit and players relevant despite being technically outclassed. This definitely has potential.

[xhrit]

I think clan gear should have higher spike damage but longer cycle time, thus making it the exact same DPS as IS weapons, but better in the fast and flexible style fights favored by the clans.

Edited by xhrit, 06 March 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[Monky]

To be honest, Clans are the only reason I can see the devs keeping ECM as it is. It's currently about the only thing other than Gauss rifles that stand up to clan tech. if BAP, AMS, and NARC where improved, IS would be in somewhat decent shape.

[DEN_Ninja]

If Clan mechs and clan factions do make their way into this game then I agree.

Clan factions should drop with a predetermined set of mechs. Inner sphere should have either dropship mode or Reinforcement. It would be really cool to have so that a commander can call in reinforcements after the game enters a losing state. Like if its a 10 vs 12 match and you lose 6 people in the first few minutes you should back about to call down a fresh new lance or 2 from a queue of people waiting on the 'Reserves Regiments'

[Noobzorz]

It might be sacrilege to say it, but in a case like this, I think the lore should take a backseat. Games like Dawn of War have ignored the lore when it comes to determining relative strengths of factions (i.e. Tyranid and/or Space Marines are thoroughly unstoppable and that's all there is to it), and the effect on my enjoyment of the game is negligible.

If I want to take my cataphract into a dust up with a mad cat, I think I should be able to do it without being inherently disadvantaged. Because that sounds like fun to me, and a lot less work for the balance team (who wind up effectively balancing two separate games) so that they can focus on more important stuff.

[Tarman]

Noobzorz, on 06 March 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

It might be sacrilege to say it, but in a case like this, I think the lore should take a backseat. Games like Dawn of War have ignored the lore when it comes to determining relative strengths of factions (i.e. Tyranid and/or Space Marines are thoroughly unstoppable and that's all there is to it), and the effect on my enjoyment of the game is negligible.

If I want to take my cataphract into a dust up with a mad cat, I think I should be able to do it without being inherently disadvantaged. Because that sounds like fun to me, and a lot less work for the balance team (who wind up effectively balancing two separate games) so that they can focus on more important stuff.

There are a lot of different ways they could implement Clans, that is true. This one looks like a good potential candidate though. It should have a place at the table even if it doesn't get chosen.

[Zeus X]

When clan tech comes out, IS mechs will be better with the Clan weapons.

It gets better!

[Mechabrozilla]

Well if the game keeps the team deathmatch/conquest format then then something like allowing clans as a seperate 3rd group into matches but with limited numbers half max number of players it could be fun (meaning 4 at the moment). That way players could have their overpowered clan mechs and weapons but have to risk going against superior numbers that may double team them.

For old time MMO players this is sort of like Dark Age of Camelot and Guild Wars 2. Having a 3rd group in a fight can make things interesting if done right.

[Dredhawk]

Just out fit the IS mechs with clan weapons problem half solved since of course the clan mechs will be superior...I am just waiting for Clan mechs to get in the game never cared much for most of the IS mechs...Just butch of barbarian technology just like the Surat of the Inner Sphere houses the march to Terra will be glory's....

[xRatas]

I hope tech stays pure.

If we put clan tech to IS mechs, IS tech becomes useless, and trials end up even more horribly outclassed.

I like the slow firing clan weapons, after all, they are so elite and great, they are not supposed to miss their shots anyway. So no harm done there.

[OneEyed Jack]

I will be greatly disappointed if they allow Clan gear on IS mechs right out of the gate.

[Teralitha]

Splatcats will still decimate even clan mechs. Oh yea... 90 damage alpha strike can kill anything in 1 or 2 hits, even the biggest fattest clan assault mech doesnt stand a chance.

Edited by Teralitha, 07 March 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[ragingmunkyz]

Noobzorz, on 06 March 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

It might be sacrilege to say it, but in a case like this, I think the lore should take a backseat. Games like Dawn of War have ignored the lore when it comes to determining relative strengths of factions (i.e. Tyranid and/or Space Marines are thoroughly unstoppable and that's all there is to it), and the effect on my enjoyment of the game is negligible.

If I want to take my cataphract into a dust up with a mad cat, I think I should be able to do it without being inherently disadvantaged. Because that sounds like fun to me, and a lot less work for the balance team (who wind up effectively balancing two separate games) so that they can focus on more important stuff.

As much as I respect the background fluff of the Battletech universe, I have to echo the sentiments of Noobzorz. In this case game balance really needs to take precedent over the lore. The game already as enough areas that need balance tweaks without asking PGI to intentionally compound those issues with mechs that are overpowered by design.

Game modes with smaller all-Clan teams against larger IS teams sounds like a nifty idea, but I think the reality of trying to find the right balance would be a nightmare and the results would likely be a tragic. Right off the bat, you could only really implement this as TDM, because any objectives based game will naturally favor the larger force. Tabletop mechanics just do not directly transfer well to skill-based pvp games, there are just too many additional factors to consider. However lofty it sounds, the goal should always be absolute parity.

On the other hand, more powerful but slower-firing weapons may be a more palatable solution, and won't be plagued with the same issues as your initial idea from the get-go.

Edited by ragingmunkyz, 07 March 2013 - 02:09 AM.

[Varancar]

Slightly off topic: what if clans get 'summon elemental' consumable?

[MonkeyCheese]

Zaptruder, on 06 March 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

This game needs to be balanced on several fronts. At the individual level, at the tactical level and at the metagame level.

At the indivdual level, Inner Sphere mechs are never going to be balanced with clan mechs one on one. The lore isn't like that, the TT rules aren't like that, and for the sake of retaining that interesting dynamic, this game shouldn't be about that either.

At a tactical level, the easiest solution is faction based. Clan teams and Innersphere teams completely segregated. That'll allow us to have 4v8, or 5v8 or 10v14 or whatever ratio the gameplay guys determines is most appropriate.

The problem... exists at the meta level. The reality is, players are going to be both clan and innersphere players.

But players naturally prefer feeling a sense of superiority; choosing the more powerful mechs (not necessarily the most powerful, but ones that are certainly competitive at a 1 on 1 level with the most powerful; so in current game terms that means mechs that have been fully upgraded; ES, Ferro, DHS, XL, etc as appropriate).

So even if players are able to play both factions on the same account; it creates a metagame problem where players end up in their clan mechs most of the time.


So how do you solve this? How do you incentivize players to climb back into their innersphere mechs to restore a metagame balance; where you can still see an equal number of clan and innersphere players?


The solution might not be too far away at all; the developers have already mentioned they're planning on incorporating a "Dropship mode" down the line; where players queue up multiple mechs and drop again after the one they're in blows up; until they run out of mechs in their queue.

Taking that and applying it to Innersphere mechs... while the mech power doesn't go up, the player power goes up instantly. Suddenly, there's a large incentive to play on the Innersphere side if you're a personally competitive player; because you get a free life!


The upside of this solution is that it will gel quite well with mechanics to be introduced, the lore and the general asymmetrical feel of innersphere and clan mechs, without creating unnecessary and arbitrary rulesets (like enforcing zellbriggen).

In the projected timeframe of clan mech launch; 12v12 should already be out.

If it's a clan v innersphere match, you could have 10 clans vs 12 innersphere; keeping in line with the lore based cluster of units.

The reason you'd do 10 clan vs 12 innersphere is because having a redrop isn't equal to having 2 mechs; it's somewhat less, due to the fact that you'll be out of place when the redrop occurs; your team will be getting cut up by Clan mechs and it'll take a few moments for you to reach the front lines again for reinforcement.

So it'll create a intersting gameplay dynamic, where the first wave of IS mechs are there to soften up the clans as much as possible; while the objective for the clanners are to cut down the IS as swiftly as possible without compromising their battlefield endurance (ammo/armour/consumables)... and when the second wave gets on, then the real fight to the death begins; fresh IS mechs against weakened clan mechs.

Great ideas, I would love to see it happen in game.

[Jay Kerensky]

Varancar, on 07 March 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

Slightly off topic: what if clans get 'summon elemental' consumable?

If Clans get to summon elementals, IS should be able to summon Dragons

Magic is further advanced in the Inner Sphere

Edit : Spelling

Edited by Jay Kerensky, 07 March 2013 - 03:56 AM.

[Sug]

Jay Kerensky, on 07 March 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

If Clans get to summon elementals, IS should be able to summon Dragons

Magic is further advanced in the Inner Sphere

Boooooooooo

[Harmin]

Personally I want the IS mechs to be as disadvantaged against clan mechs as they were in the lore/books. 1 on 1 with equal tonnage, a clan mech should totally outclass an IS mech.

-Armin

[LordDante]

Tarman, on 06 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

Interesting proposal. Clan-fans I think would relish the chance to go fullbore into the dirtside playstyle of that faction, and it keeps the IS kit and players relevant despite being technically outclassed. This definitely has potential.

bring em on !