101 replies to this topic

[Agent KI7KO]

Canonically Atlases have been known for their strength, being able to pick up lighter mechs and crush them, so let them pick up other mechs to use as a shield instead, or an improvised melee weapon.

Edited by Afoxi, 01 June 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[wanderer]

Woo! I am gonna have to pull out Tactical Operations just to straighten out people on all the actual rules and existing defensive technology out there.

First off, Sarna's rules on shields aren't correct. That's pure fanwank you're looking at. Physical shields do exist, but are generally part of a 'Mech to begin with. Built-in as part of construction rather than handing one a chunk of metal and telling them "Hey, block with this!". There's been adequate mention of some canon designs that use them.

Second, armor tonnage for -standard- armor tops out at about 20 tons, for a 100-ton quad chassis. Hardened armor, which indeed does slow down a 'Mech (and make it tougher to pilot) is an advanced but canon option- the Great Turtle being the most famous canon example, but there are plenty of 'Mechs (and indeed, even vehicles) that will end up being built over the Clan War era. As of 3049, hardened armor is at the prototype stage. Hardened armor maxes at twice the tonnage of standard- so yes, there have been designs that have 40 tons of armor on them. In addition, location-specific armor (modular) is possible, but that won't be until 3070 when Battlemech modular armor is first developed, and provides similar problems to hardened armor.

[RangerRob]

Pretty sure the Sarna rules are from the Solaris VII map pack.
Released before the Total Warfare rules and replaced by the rules you mentioned in Tactical Operations.

The point I was attempting to make was....

In the time frame we are talking about (3049) the only mechs that were lugging around "Shields" on one of their arms were found on Solaris VII.

Yes in the 3070's a very very small percentage of mech chassis started bringing shields to the battlefield.

[Alfred VonGunn]

You already have a shield.. it is called ARMOR.......

[Captain Nice HD]

As others have noted, BattleMech-scale ballistic shields* canonically exist in BattleTech as per Tactical Operations, regardless of what anyone's objections are. They are, however, considered experimental equipment, and not terribly practical on the real battlefield.

Personally, if they ever are added to the game, my preference would be that they come bundled with or after the inclusion of melee weapons, and preferably restricted to Solaris VII arena matches.


*technically, they're really more like BattleMech-scale bucklers, since they're bolted to the forearm instead of held with the hand actuator.

[Coop Cooplowski12]

Ok, so, just to preface, I am new to MW in general. I think i played a mechwarrior arcade game near my local paintball but the only reason i think so is because i remember a heavy class being called Atlas (it had a humanoid face) and a light called timberwolf. But i digress, i think ballistic shields would be interesting to implement, if the design for the mech in question suites it. From the artwork and designs i've seen MW's mechs look very "tanky" and rudementary, as opposed to the agile and elegant, more humanoid, Gundam designs.

Edited by Coop Cooplowski12, 01 June 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Coop Cooplowski12, on 01 June 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Ok, so, just to preface, I am new to MW in general. I think i played a mechwarrior arcade game near my local paintball but the only reason i think so is because i remember a heavy class being called Atlas (it had a humanoid face) and a light called timberwolf. But i digress, i think ballistic shields would be interesting to implement, if the design for the mech in question suites it. From the artwork and designs i've seen MW's mechs look very "tanky" and rudementary, as opposed to the agile and elegant, more humanoid, Gundam designs.

The Atlas is an Assault class 'mech.

The Timber Wolf (called the Mad Cat by the Inner Sphere) is a Heavy class 'mech.

This is not Gundam. This is pretty much the opposite of Gundam while still involving bi-pedal (and some quad, although not in MWO, yet) 'mechs.

As much as I hate to say this, go give World of Tanks a shot while you're waiting for this game to come out. It gives you a very good feel of what MWO will play like (at least from what I imagine from the videos I've seen).

You're slow, armored, and heavily armed. Light 'mechs are obviously the lighter, faster 'mechs, but they're still not nearly as agile as the Gundams you're used to, while the Assaults are hulking mobile fortresses almost.

But I digress, let's get back to discussing shields.

Edited by Oswin Aurelius, 02 June 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[TripleHex]

Physical shields like what the knights of the round table used are already a part of the Btech universe (not sure about energy sheilds... not sure I'd WANT them!). Classic examples of these are the Solaris VII mechs and a few other experimental designs. Do I feel these designs should be included in the game? Maybe... as a part of a "Solaris VII Expansion" or something they'd be a welcome addition, but not in the regular game... too expensive to maintain in the field. A few examples of each are below.

Colosuss
http://www.sarna.net...us_(BattleMech)

Sasquatch
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sasquatch

Valiant
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Valiant

[Gladewolf]

This game has always had "shields", it's just a matter of not putting any weapons in one, or both of your arms and then armoring it.....you don't really need that arm for anything other than soaking damage. Several mech designs are set up this way.

[LackofCertainty]

Gladewolf, on 02 June 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

This game has always had "shields", it's just a matter of not putting any weapons in one, or both of your arms and then armoring it.....you don't really need that arm for anything other than soaking damage. Several mech designs are set up this way.

I like this method of shields rather than adding on the extra work of modeling and balancing physical shields for the game. One of the reasons they're doing hardpoints the way they are is so that they can make 1 model for each mech (and variant) and still have it look fairly convincing when you've mechlabbed it all to hell. Shields go against this idea, because they're external, which means that if implemented they'd need to tweak each individual model so that it didn't look wonky with each type of shield. Aka, a lot of extra work.

I'm not morally opposed to the idea or anything. If the shields are dump-able, I can see the appeal. It'd basically be one off armor. You'd hold it and absorb a salvo or two, then dump it so that your mech isn't slowed down to a crawl by the extra weight. I imagine the advantage would be countered by the speed penalty and torso/arm rotation penalty. Sure, it could absorb some extra damage, but it doesn't do you any good when a light/medium sprints behind you and you can't turn fast enough to catch up to it.

So, thumbs down but toss the idea into the dev's junk drawer and maybe they can have another look at it in a year or two.

[wanderer]

Gladewolf, on 02 June 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

This game has always had "shields", it's just a matter of not putting any weapons in one, or both of your arms and then armoring it.....you don't really need that arm for anything other than soaking damage. Several mech designs are set up this way.

And for all and sundry, let me paraphrase a bit from Tac Ops on how 'Mech-sized shields actually work. Shields are bolted onto an arm, just like 'Mech weaponry is. They do indeed provide additional protection, which restricts fire depending on how actively the shield is being used. Inactively, it just makes it harder to fire the shield arm's weapons and only protects the shield arm. Passively, it protects the arm and side torso, but makes firing weapons from those areas even harder- but allows the shield-user to bash with it as a physical attack. Actively, it covers the shield arm, back and front of the same-side torso, the front CT, the head, and the leg on the same side as the shield- but can't fire weapons from any of those locations.

What a shield is, however is a defense in excess of the maximum armor value of a limb by itself. In Battletech, shields provide damage absorption- that is, if you get the shield between you and the hit in question, the shield will take up to it's damage absorption rating in damage, and any remaining damage will continue to the location that would have been hit otherwise. In addition, a shield can only take so much damage before becoming useless- it's DC (damage capacity). Crits to the shield will reduce DA and DC, so does actuator damage to the arm it's mounted on.

In addition, larger shields cut into movement- medium ones drop your movement a notch, large shields render you incapable of jumping (and still have the movement penalty) - and they're not jettisonable. The penalty remains until the arm is gone or every critical hit location of the shield is destroyed.

That's not to say that a shield is cruddy- even a small shield can soften a few hits that might otherwise punch through your armor, and a large shield can actually soak up most of the barrage from an Awesome while leaving the 'Mech behind it barely scorched, and a shield bash is a remarkably accurate physical attack. Right now, in MWO the shield would have less than it's full effectiveness- but it has potential.

(For the record, small shields are DA 3/DC 11, medium DA 5/DC 18, large DA 7/DC 25.)

[DocBach]

In this game shields are called armor, and you get eight points of it per half ton you add to the chassis. As for energy shields I remember in a scenario pack called Unbound there was a shield that protected against PPC's. It was called blue something something.

ETA: Unless you guys want to add all that wacky Solaris VII dueling equipment. Which actually might be cool if they have Solaris VII duels. But outside of a couple of XTRO's and scenario packs, there haven't been any cannon 'Mechs with actual, functional shields. Some art depicts shield like bracers or pauldrons on some 'Mechs, but nothing like the shields you see in Gundam or whatever.

Edited by DocBach, 02 June 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Thorn Blackwell]

DocBach, on 02 June 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

In this game shields are called armor, and you get eight points of it per half ton you add to the chassis. As for energy shields I remember in a scenario pack called Unbound there was a shield that protected against PPC's. It was called blue something something.

ETA: Unless you guys want to add all that wacky Solaris VII dueling equipment. Which actually might be cool if they have Solaris VII duels. But outside of a couple of XTRO's and scenario packs, there haven't been any cannon 'Mechs with actual, functional shields. Some art depicts shield like bracers or pauldrons on some 'Mechs, but nothing like the shields you see in Gundam or whatever.

Very true ...

I admit a heavy prejudice against anything released in Battletech after the release of the book "Lost Legacy." Up until that time the rules were driven by the players who loved the game, but afterward all rules revisions seemed to reflect what was written in the books. That was a horrible thing for the game IMO. My love for the books and the game declined significantly from that point onward. I don't know anyone that was part of our huge house league that liked additions to the game after the release of the 2055 Technical Readout. Most of it was never allowed in our house league and that was pretty much that.

It should be noted we didn't allow Clan tech to be implemented freely in our league. Regular players could make a Clan drop in any regular game at predetermined times (mech counts and turns played determined when a given Clan Star could drop). The Clans were primarily standard units not league teams, but a good way to give a challenge to the better players mostly. League teams could build clan mechs or use clan tech with clan salvage only. In other words, to build a clan mech you had to kill clan mechs, or play the clan for a drop. This made it more fun for everyone. Regular players (people who played frequently) would get to play a basically expendable Clan force, hurt their competitors, and automatically gain some clan salvage for playing the Clan drop regardless of whether they won.

Our rules for league play became extensive as the rules lawyers made playing games less fun, and eventually the body of work that was the league rules got so ponderous the few dedicated judges that were appointed to arbitrate disputes got tired of the whining. The league fell apart shortly thereafter. I'm guessing sometime around the late nineties, but it may have been later than that.

Edited by Thorn Blackwell, 02 June 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[Stormeris]

[wanderer]

DocBach, on 02 June 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

In this game shields are called armor, and you get eight points of it per half ton you add to the chassis. As for energy shields I remember in a scenario pack called Unbound there was a shield that protected against PPC's. It was called blue something something.

ETA: Unless you guys want to add all that wacky Solaris VII dueling equipment. Which actually might be cool if they have Solaris VII duels. But outside of a couple of XTRO's and scenario packs, there haven't been any cannon 'Mechs with actual, functional shields. Some art depicts shield like bracers or pauldrons on some 'Mechs, but nothing like the shields you see in Gundam or whatever.

Well, that does tend to change as you march further past the 3040's. Hatchets were first production-model equipment on the aptly named Hatchetman, and Kuritan designers came up with a production-model sword in 3058. The first shield-equipped design doesn't show in full production until the Valiant in 3074-5, but it does indeed become a production model. For that matter, maces don't end up on production-model 'Mechs until the Mjolnir, a Lyran design built in 3077.

Solaris tech may be fancy stuff, but a lot of it ends up trickling down to actual mass-produced models- the biggie is going to be the Thunderbolt missile launcher, which'll end up being the basis for the Thunderbolt-5/10/15/20 systems that go into full production in the early 3070's (and prototype in the 3050's).

Edited by wanderer, 02 June 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Dovoid]

Could you yes. should you no.

[DocBach]

wanderer, on 02 June 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well, that does tend to change as you march further past the 3040's. Hatchets were first production-model equipment on the aptly named Hatchetman, and Kuritan designers came up with a production-model sword in 3058. The first shield-equipped design doesn't show in full production until the Valiant in 3074-5, but it does indeed become a production model. For that matter, maces don't end up on production-model 'Mechs until the Mjolnir, a Lyran design built in 3077.

Solaris tech may be fancy stuff, but a lot of it ends up trickling down to actual mass-produced models- the biggie is going to be the Thunderbolt missile launcher, which'll end up being the basis for the Thunderbolt-5/10/15/20 systems that go into full production in the early 3070's (and prototype in the 3050's).

Physical weapons like hatchets/swords/maces aren't shields. The stock Valiant's shield is purely cosmetic has no in game statistics or value. It's like the Griffin's shoulder armor that fluff wise was suppose to protect the head but game wise provided no extra benefit or protection.

Edited by DocBach, 02 June 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[wanderer]

DocBach, on 02 June 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Physical weapons like hatchets/swords/maces aren't shields. The stock Valiant's shield is purely cosmetic has no in game statistics or value. It's like the Griffin's shoulder armor that fluff wise was suppose to protect the head but game wise provided no extra benefit or protection.

I was referring to the fact that Solaris tech trickles-down to production use more frequently than many might think. Also-

The stock Valiant isn't the only production model- the -J3, which uses an actual small shield is used by the Federated Suns, Kell Hounds, and Wolf's Dragoons. (Note also the Battleforce stats, which specifically note it's shield use.)

http://www.masteruni...liant-V4-LNT-J3

Edited by wanderer, 02 June 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[DocBach]

Either way, the Valiant is a good thirty years out for us. The point is beyond hatchets, there aren't any arm carrier armor for 'Mechs in this time frame.

[wanderer]

Oh, I agree with that! I was just clarifying the actual rules on "how shields work" in Battletech and when they ARE viable for MWO (read: not) and that indeed, they eventually are made on mass-produced models. Just nowhere near to "now", MWO-wise.

That is, it is possible for shields to exist on a Battlemech. I have posted what and how those are in-canon. They won't be available to MWO designs simply because they won't exist in production-type parts for another 25 or so years of game time, not because the designers think they're ludicrous (which canonically, it isn't).