145 replies to this topic

[Royalewithcheese]

Sometimes a good way to get people to advance slowly is to make it easier for them to advance slowly. If you move up in a way that lets them know you're going to be covering them, they'll be more likely to move forward. If you just run out there and try to cap or blitz the enemy or whatever (keep in mind that they have no idea what your plan is or if you know what you're doing if you don't tell them) you're not making it (as far as they know) any more useful to advance.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 07 March 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

So what you are saying is that the very old wartime doctrines of ambushing the enemy and hide in cover have no place in a mech wargame?

Why be in a hurry? Most matches can be over in under 5 minutes, the average about 8 and a match is 15.

This is a wargame, you bet your *** i'll skulk in the shadows to get an advantage - especially if you weight more than me.

How often do you see anti tank infantry fight tanks on an open field with no cover? well, you dont anymore because those tanks won.

[Elandyll]

To OP, good. Maybe PUGs are learning after all.

Until recently, the game was "hey, lets all poke our heads on top of that hill to see if the other group (possibly premade) is waiting for us to do so" [Loses Head]

I have seen people being a "little bit" more prudent, but again last night on Caustic:

Me: Guys, please stay back and let them come. Do not get up on the edge please.


Three others - get up there anyway.

Within 1 or 2 minutes, it was 0 - 3 in the ennemy's favor, pretty much over.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Elandyll, on 07 March 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

To OP, good. Maybe PUGs are learning after all.

Until recently, the game was "hey, lets all poke our heads on top of that hill to see if the other group (possibly premade) is waiting for us to do so" [Loses Head]

I have seen people being a "little bit" more prudent, but again last night on Caustic:

Me: Guys, please stay back and let them come. Do not get up on the edge please.


Three others - get up there anyway.

Within 1 or 2 minutes, it was 0 - 3 in the ennemy's favor, pretty much over.

Yeah that is frustrating.

The ECM thing I still think plays a large part in it.

People can't detect any enemies, so they pop over thinking they won't get shot to bits.

But oh wait, 8 guys with an ECM umbrella are waiting for them.

Terror Teddy, on 07 March 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

So what you are saying is that the very old wartime doctrines of ambushing the enemy and hide in cover have no place in a mech wargame?

Why be in a hurry? Most matches can be over in under 5 minutes, the average about 8 and a match is 15.

This is a wargame, you bet your *** i'll skulk in the shadows to get an advantage - especially if you weight more than me.

How often do you see anti tank infantry fight tanks on an open field with no cover? well, you dont anymore because those tanks won.

I agree to an extent, but hide in cover sniping is a VERY odd part of this game.

Some people are amazing at it (i'd wager these people are amazing at most aspects of MWO, and are just great players in general).

But most people just don't make it work, whether it's shooting and clipping the corners of your cover. Or shooting people who are far enough away to really limit damage being done. Or if it's just that they are bad shots in general.

Throw in people who have a hard time with ECM blocking who is friendly and who is enemy and friendly fire occuring from these "long range snipers" and it just comes across as a poor play to play this game.

[Novakaine]

Stop chasing the damn rabbits.
Set a snare.

[LordDante]

Valleye, on 07 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Patience has always been an effective combat tool.

Wait until they get stupid, strip off the individuals that get careless and then find the remaining weaknesses.


V.

My everyday bread and butter !

[Hamm3r]

I PUG exclusively and I can tell you personally, I don't give a crap about my stats, couldn't tell you my KDR, below 1 I can tell you that! I'm just in it to have fun.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Hamm3r, on 07 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

I PUG exclusively and I can tell you personally, I don't give a crap about my stats, couldn't tell you my KDR, below 1 I can tell you that! I'm just in it to have fun.

I'm the same way, only reason I look at stats is if someone is complaining about a weapon system. I can now go look at see what I do with that system.

But fun is the main thing.

That is kind of where Kylere's point comes from...is it fun to stand around? And wait? And be the guy who only wants to fight when it's to his advantage, not because of tactics or strategy, but because of cowardice?

Only wanting to engage when his team member is taking the brunt of the damage, and not helping to save that teammate but to pad his stats.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 07 March 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[Zero Neutral]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 March 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I'm the same way, only reason I look at stats is if someone is complaining about a weapon system. I can now go look at see what I do with that system.

But fun is the main thing.

That is kind of where Kylere's point comes from...is it fun to stand around? And wait? And be the guy who only wants to fight when it's to his advantage, not because of tactics or strategy, but because of cowardice?

Only wanting to engage when his team member is taking the brunt of the damage, and not helping to save that teammate but to pad his stats.

Some times the side that acts first is at a disadvantage... waiting is a valid strategy.

[Xie Belvoule]

Kylere, on 07 March 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Okay, it is time to completely remove stats. Every PUG match I am in is becoming a game of "Wait until someone else engages so I do not die"

This was always an issue before but now it has grown dramatically worse. Atlai with ERPPCS playing sniper? Ravens that will not run into the enemy rear? Cataphacts thinking they are Catapults?

This is silly, the sheer cowardice is going to drive me to a teamspeak server and my fellow PUGS should be ashamed.

Your main problem is that your a PUG and thus not there to win. Your their to populate the game, you are essentially the AI controlled NPCs and mobs, you're just something for premades to shoot or tell to RTB. When I drop with my lance we just use pugs as meat shields, their not worth anything else.

Havok1978, on 07 March 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

It's a team based game, the lack of communication is what diminishes your experience and the stubborn refusal to use teamspeak seals your fate.
It's not about being elite, its about being competent and effective.

People bragging about KDR and such have no concept of team play,
Havok out, I'm going back to my bridge....

EDIT: I "love" seeing things like
"just go hide and shutdown, the match is lost"
LoL.. fail.

This^

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 March 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I'm glad you find time to ignore your family after a long day of work. Or do you not work 40 hours? My kids are 2 and 5. Are yours teenagers and easy to just push aside while you game?

And I love this "I'm a serious gamer". Really? I was a serious gamer too, when I was in college and single. I grew up.

I'm not saying you can't devote time to this game, but flaunting that you spend every night with a headset on gaming as if it's a badge of honor is silly.

Edit: Just realized you aren't even talking about yourself, so you don't have kids and a family? And you just game with people that do? So you don't even know if they are basically ignoring their family to game? Why do you think you can even comment on my gaming while having a family when you are single with seemingly no responsibilities if you are on here every night with a headset?

Games should be enjoyable for everyone. Not just people who are spending every night ignoring their life.

I'm not saying accomodate me at all. I'm just saying that there are reasons some of us don't group a lot and use teamspeak. And that the experience right now is very bi-polar with regards to matchmaking.

I figured that with Elo we'd see more of an even style of play. Whereas it has not been the case, some days I'm playing with people who seem to grasp basic concepts, and other times that is very much not the case.

Wow your an arrogant little *****, aren't you?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Zero Neutral, on 07 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Some times the side that acts first is at a disadvantage... waiting is a valid strategy.

Thank you captain obvious. That is definitely not what I am talking about.

We are talking about a specific subset of player that either through lack of understanding or cowardice is sitting back and waiting to engage, not to help the team win but because they are scared or looking only to pad their own stats.

[Zero Neutral]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 March 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Thank you captain obvious. That is definitely not what I am talking about.

We are talking about a specific subset of player that either through lack of understanding or cowardice is sitting back and waiting to engage, not to help the team win but because they are scared or looking only to pad their own stats.

Your argument has no basis in anything but assumption... You have no idea what they are thinking.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Xie Belvoule, on 07 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Your main problem is that your a PUG and thus not there to win. Your their to populate the game, you are essentially the AI controlled NPCs and mobs, you're just something for premades to shoot or tell to RTB. When I drop with my lance we just use pugs as meat shields, their not worth anything else.




This^




Wow your an arrogant little *****, aren't you?

You are calling me arrogant for wanting a game that caters to all types of players? And not one that is only playable to people who put their real life on hold to be in the game every day for hours at a time while on a headset?

I'm not saying they are bad people, but some of us have other priorities than the game.

And actual arrogance is your first paragraph in your reply.

Quote

Your main problem is that your a PUG and thus not there to win. Your their to populate the game, you are essentially the AI controlled NPCs and mobs, you're just something for premades to shoot or tell to RTB. When I drop with my lance we just use pugs as meat shields, their not worth anything else.

Just to requote it. Did you re-read that at all before you posted?

Zero Neutral, on 07 March 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Your argument has no basis in anything but assumption... You have no idea what they are thinking.

No i really don't know what they are thinking. But I've played 1200 games, and I have watched enough players to know there is something not right with some players.

And these are the ones Kylere is posting about.

[Elessar]

Kylere, on 07 March 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

No, I think it is a bad thing to play 15 minutes and have the match end without a single mech dying. I think it is a waste of my time to sit there waiting while people ping away doing 1 damage per shot.


R&R was far better than what PUGS are pulling now, which is to play the entire match for stats rather than to win the round.

But that´s what I call "a lack of a person stepping up with a plan and telling the other PUGs via Teamchat what to do"

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Elessar, on 07 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

But that´s what I call "a lack of a person stepping up with a plan and telling the other PUGs via Teamchat what to do"

I communicate in chat a lot, sometimes it just does not work at all. At all.

[Terror Teddy]

Xie Belvoule, on 07 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Your main problem is that your a PUG and thus not there to win.

Yea, of course, a casual player never goes in to win but just stand there as a target to bask in your golden win dedicated superior glory.

You condesending way of writing that and the stupidity of the thought process behind it is very mindboggling.

Xie Belvoule, on 07 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Wow your an arrogant little *****, aren't you?

Pot, meet kettle.

[Xie Belvoule]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 March 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Thank you captain obvious. That is definitely not what I am talking about.

We are talking about a specific subset of player that either through lack of understanding or cowardice is sitting back and waiting to engage, not to help the team win but because they are scared or looking only to pad their own stats.

They are PUGS, as long as you and they continue to pug you are these guys......

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Terror Teddy, on 07 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Yea, of course, a casual player never goes in to win but just stand there as a target to bask in your golden win dedicated superior glory.

You condesending way of writing that and the stupidity of the thought process behind it is very mindboggling.



Pot, meet kettle.

Thank you Teddy.

[Kylere]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 07 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

I agree to an extent, but hide in cover sniping is a VERY odd part of this game. Some people are amazing at it (i'd wager these people are amazing at most aspects of MWO, and are just great players in general).

Terror Teddy, on 07 March 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

So what you are saying is that the very old wartime doctrines of ambushing the enemy and hide in cover have no place in a mech wargame?

Why be in a hurry? Most matches can be over in under 5 minutes, the average about 8 and a match is 15.

This is a wargame, you bet your *** i'll skulk in the shadows to get an advantage - especially if you weight more than me.

How often do you see anti tank infantry fight tanks on an open field with no cover? well, you dont anymore because those tanks won.

You are confusing moving tactically with utter cowardice. I am griping about cowardice, not tactics. People are intentionally holding back until the battle is already won, or holding back until they can grab a kill shot rather than actively playing.

[Padic]

Kylere, on 07 March 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I will skip the frak you that you deserve because you are working entirely from assumption. I want tactics (strategy does not exist at this level), I do not want the weenies hiding in the assault boats at Normandy rather than hitting the beaches.

If you count MW:O as a sim game, and remember that cowardice is deeply ingrained in humanity, MW:O is doing its job. In conflict, there's always going to be friction between those who want to charge and be done with it and those who want to stick to the foxholes and trenches.

So, I dunno. Human behavior. If you don't want to watch people behaving like real people, stick to single player games.