157 replies to this topic

[Esplodin]

Josef Nader, on 07 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Machine guns can get rid of that weapon and let you move on to something else in very short order. His right torso might still be in the yellow/orange, but his AC20 is gone. This lets you swing over to his CT/LT whatever, because you've done everything you needed to do in his right torso.

I'm not arguing the effectiveness of critting components and the value of that. It is impressive. The issue is getting to the point where you can actually do damage. The video is speed doubled to show how even doubling the raw damage on a 4MG boat is still utter weaksauce because you have to get through the armor before we can even begin to talk about crits.

In a normal combat scenario a 4 MG spider has almost 0 chance of sanding off enough armor to get to the gooey nougat center where the crit magic happens. I loaded a MPL while I was leveling the chassis in the one energy hardpoint, but that still leaves 4 hard points with 0 DPS until I can fire enough to bother using them. I found it was vastly more effective to load an ERLL or LPL and forget about the crit nonsense - you ain't loading a PPC in the CT. The Spider might as well be a 1 energy hard point mech.

[Josef Nader]

See the video I posted immediately before your post.

And yes, MGs do nothing against armor. Zero. I've lost fights to stock commandos in my 4 MG spider because he had too much armor. This is why I was very specific in saying that the 5K makes a good operating partner. Teamed with a larger mech, it can give the larger mech a significant leg up by knocking out all of his enemy's components. I usually do terrible damage in my 5K, but my team tends to win more often than not, as mechs are being disabled almost as soon as their armor is penetrated. They can then move on to another target, leaving the enemy mech ineffectually running around shooting us with whatever backup weapons he cared to bring, and it eventually becomes a matter of mopping up.

So no, a 5K is not a damage boat. You're never going to drill through armor and kill a mech alone as a 5K. The 5K plays a role that is not supposed to be a DPS monster, and that's why people don't like it. Like I said, I'm not saying it's competitive in a 1v1, and I certainly don't expect to see it in tournament play, but it does have it's uses and it makes an excellent support mech provided it doesn't get devoured by Cravens.

Edited by Josef Nader, 07 March 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[TexAce]

Esplodin, on 07 March 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not arguing the effectiveness of critting components and the value of that. It is impressive. The issue is getting to the point where you can actually do damage. The video is speed doubled to show how even doubling the raw damage on a 4MG boat is still utter weaksauce because you have to get through the armor before we can even begin to talk about crits.

In a normal combat scenario a 4 MG spider has almost 0 chance of sanding off enough armor to get to the gooey nougat center where the crit magic happens. I loaded a MPL while I was leveling the chassis in the one energy hardpoint, but that still leaves 4 hard points with 0 DPS until I can fire enough to bother using them. I found it was vastly more effective to load an ERLL or LPL and forget about the crit nonsense - you ain't loading a PPC in the CT. The Spider might as well be a 1 energy hard point mech.

But keep in mind how often you can shoot with the one big laser and how much luck you need to destroy a weapon on the enemy's mech compared to the 1 second of fire from the MGs.

And yes, its still 1-2 seconds when you look at Josef Nader's video where he didnt speed up the video and used only 2 MGs.

Edited by TexAss, 07 March 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Esplodin]

TexAss, on 07 March 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

OP tried to prove how bad they are but actually he made them look pretty decent... haha

Please keep in mind the video speed is doubled, not normal speed. In reality it takes many multiple times as long in combat because you aren't going to get more then a couple seconds on target, and the damage will be spread out to adjacent sections without face hugging.

[TexAce]

Esplodin, on 07 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Please keep in mind the video speed is doubled, not normal speed. In reality it takes many multiple times as long in combat because you aren't going to get more then a couple seconds on target, and the damage will be spread out to adjacent sections without face hugging.

again look at this:

It still took just one second to destroy the weapon with just 2 MGs and normal speed of fire.

For me I'm not talking about 4xMG Spiders and Cicadas.
I'm more interested in the effect on a Treb 7K where you can take 2 decent Laser and 2 decent Missile weapons and pack 2 MGs next to them for exactly this type of crit seeking.

Rip of armor with SMRs and MLs and then dakkadakka.

Edited by TexAss, 07 March 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Gevurah]

Per Patch notes:
- The Machine Gun has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the Machine Gun crits, it will deal 12.5x the amount of normal damage per bullet to an internal item.
- The Machine Gun crit damage is 12.5 x 0.04 = 0.5 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 1.5.


Per mwowiki.org
Currently, the Machine Gun does very little damage. However, it does incredible damage to internal structural components. It has a 39% chance to deal 1 Critical Hit, 28% chance to deal 2 critical hits, and 6% chance to deal 3 critical hits. The max damage each bullet can do is 1.5 compared to the normal 0.04 point of damage each bullet does to armor.

maximum damage: 15.
median crit damage: 10.
Min crit damage: 5.
Base chance to crit: 73%.
Improvement over regular weapons: 31%. (standard weapons have 42% crit chance total).

http://mwomercs.com/...-a-brief-guide/

Two great charts near the end show the effectiveness of crit seeking.

Basically though your damage assuming a perfect spread of 39 hits doing .5, 28 hits doing 1, 6 hits doing 1.5 with the remaining 27 being .04 is:
57.34 (out of 100 bullets), in 10 seconds.
That's 5.734 DPS *PER MACHINE GUN* to internal components. Basically having 3 of them is like hitting with a gauss rifle EVERY SECOND to internal components. Four is like an AC20 every second.

The math speaks for itself. Whether the enemy dies or not in a rapid fashion is secondary - what does it matter if they effectively neutered and unable to do anything worthwhile for their team? I reiterate - for an intelligent player it is a worthwhile support weapon.

Edited by Gevurah, 07 March 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Kurshuk]

Darius Deadeye, on 07 March 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

I use machine guns regardless of their validity because they sound FANTASTIC.

The double fire rate displayed in your video should be normal fire rate, imo.

Me too, I jammed some on one of my atlases since that ST gets targeted so heavily. I did ok in that build since the main damage came from the arms and missiles.

I'm all for a buff to MGs, all the weapons we have should be viable since we don't have 100s to choose from.

Kurshuk

[Terror Teddy]

Gevurah, on 07 March 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

I reiterate - for an intelligent player it is a worthwhile support weapon.

The problem DO arise when you get a spider with 4 machine guns as they are essentially his MAIN weapons and not support weapons.

I would prefer more OMPH, less crit and less ammo.

Plinking is fun but not very efficient even against other light mechs.

[Odanan]

Esplodin, on 07 March 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

There have been a lot of threads about machine gun (MG) and their (inability to do) damage to a mech in MWO. Believe me, NOBODY wants another streak fiasco with a 4MG light. So, using my incredible powers of video production on my craptastic 3yr old laptop, I give you:



Please watch before proceeding.

Spoiler

As you can see they are TERRIBLE, even when "boating" - lol. Remember, these are ideal situations where:

1) Stock mech with stock armor (I bet you have more)
2) Shooting at only the rear center torso (lights like giving from the rear )
3) Insanely close in (I would NEVER get this close without a piloting error)
4) Constant time on target (not the more normal stick n move)
5) Doubled rate of fire (effectively doubling the DPS)
6) Enemy pilot is in a coma or dead

The last mech I use a small laser at normal DPS. One small laser is just about as effective as 4 MG with a doubled DPS. Sad dakkarachnid is sad, and the Devs should feel bad for releasing dakkamechs designed specifically to use such an ineffective weapon.

P.S. Still works GREAT at getting pilot Agro though. Also, a big TY to the devs for a training ground!!!

And Forrest Colony STILL has the screen darkening bug.

Jesus, MGs are worst than I though!

[Esplodin]

Josef Nader, on 07 March 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

This is why I was very specific in saying that the 5K makes a good operating partner.

Agreed, it can be a good complement to a team because of critmagic. In my experience though I would get stepped on and TK by the larger mech for attempting to "killsteal" - not a PUG/PUB friendly tactic even if it is effective in a group.

TexAss, on 07 March 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

It still took just one second to destroy the weapon with just 2 MGs and normal speed of fire.

And in one scenario the mech is completely dead, and the other you knocked out a weapon. With MG that mech still has other weapons, can cap, damage tank, pin/facehug. You need to knock out the armor first for critmagic, which aint happening in a spider without gunnery skills in energy weapons and time.

[TexAce]

Odanan, on 07 March 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Jesus, MGs are worst than I though!

When I read this up there ^^ I'm somehow glad since I clearly got an advantage now over him by only reading other peoples posts (like Gevurah's).

Edited by TexAss, 07 March 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Pihoqahiak]

Stormwolf, on 07 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

MG's are anti-infantry weapons in a game that doesn't have infantry, so yeah, they are useless.

They were plenty effective enough against mechs for the weight and heat cost in Battletech, they were of course devastating against infantry though. MGs were basically even shorter range versions of SRMs (damage wise)in Battletech that generated zero heat for about the same weight as an equivalent damage amount of SRMs, with the ability to annihilate infantry and buy ammo in half ton amounts if desired instead of full 1 ton amounts.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

I get the feeling that the resistance is really about making sure light pilots with ballistic hard points are gimped to ineffectiveness by denying them the ONLY ballistic weapon that will fit their weight.

Le sigh!

[TexAce]

Gevurah, on 07 March 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Per Patch notes:
- The Machine Gun has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the Machine Gun crits, it will deal 12.5x the amount of normal damage per bullet to an internal item.
- The Machine Gun crit damage is 12.5 x 0.04 = 0.5 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 1.5.


Per mwowiki.org
Currently, the Machine Gun does very little damage. However, it does incredible damage to internal structural components. It has a 39% chance to deal 1 Critical Hit, 28% chance to deal 2 critical hits, and 6% chance to deal 3 critical hits. The max damage each bullet can do is 1.5 compared to the normal 0.04 point of damage each bullet does to armor.

maximum damage: 15.
median crit damage: 10.
Min crit damage: 5.
Base chance to crit: 73%.
Improvement over regular weapons: 31%. (standard weapons have 42% crit chance total).

http://mwomercs.com/...-a-brief-guide/

Two great charts near the end show the effectiveness of crit seeking.

Basically though your damage assuming a perfect spread of 39 hits doing .5, 28 hits doing 1, 6 hits doing 1.5 with the remaining 27 being .04 is:
57.34 (out of 100 bullets), in 10 seconds.
That's 5.734 DPS *PER MACHINE GUN* to internal components. Basically having 3 of them is like hitting with a gauss rifle EVERY SECOND to internal components. Four is like an AC20 every second.

The math speaks for itself. Whether the enemy dies or not in a rapid fashion is secondary - what does it matter if they effectively neutered and unable to do anything worthwhile for their team? I reiterate - for an intelligent player it is a worthwhile support weapon.

I'm glad most here aren't judging by the posts coming although many provided very reasonable math.

Edited by TexAss, 07 March 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

I love the machine gun. L2P Cadets

[stjobe]

One of the major problems with MGs is that the 'mechs that need them to be viable the most - ballistic-heavy lights - are the ones that are least likely to survive until the match has progressed enough for the MG's crit mechanic to come into play.

The 5 DPS to components is impressive, yes, but you have to survive in your lightly-armoured 'mech long enough for the internals to be exposed - and depending on the target your opponent may very well have more armour in that section alone than you have total.

For me, personally, I think they made a mistake in making the MG a crit-weapon. I believe the way to a viable MG for ballistic-heavy lights is to drop the crit buff altogether and instead just triple the damage of each bullet.

As an aside, the MG is the only ballistic weapon that got worse in the conversion from BT to MWO. All the other ballistics got a 2.5 (AC/20) to 20 times (AC/2) DPS boost, with the lighter weapons getting a larger boost than the heavier, but the MG only got a 2 times DPS boost. All the other ballistics got a 20-50% increase in ammo per ton and damage per ton of ammo, the MG got a 90% reduction in ammo per ton, and an 80% reduction in damage per ton of ammo.

Go figure.

[verybad]

Didn't last long once you got him to red...It's a "finisher" weapon at best, but even more important, it adds to you mech ambiance.

I have them in my K2, and though I plan on improving the K2 in a few ways (DHS, ERPPC, and a few other things)I'm keeping the MGs. I don't care if they're innefective in the overall, they sound cool, and sometimes sounding cool is more important than being cool.

[Terror Teddy]

Stormwolf, on 07 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

MG's are anti-infantry weapons in a game that doesn't have infantry, so yeah, they are useless.

But what is anti-infantry in BATTLETECH? We can hardly compare it with regular soldiers of today with mostly uniforms and a few ballistic plates in 1000 years.

Also, all armor on battlemechs are ablative so they shave off in layer, there is no hardened armor so ANY hit, do cause damage.

What exactly do we think of when we hear the term "machine gun"? .50cal? M60? Most likely a LOT more. The russians today have the 14,5 mm heavy machine gun and that one alone weights up to 75kg.

SARNA writes:

Quote

The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers. Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire, though they are more commonly found on Combat Vehicles and ProtoMechs.^[3] These weapons are much heavier than those typically carried by infantry, but can be used by them when placed on a static mount, where they are called Support Machine Guns.

So we look at Support Machine Guns

Quote

Support Machine Guns are large crew-served support weapons mounted on vehicles or emplacement turrets. Too massive for a single trooper to carry, these guns fire large-caliber bullets at much greater ranges than most other ballistic weapons and with enough firepower to be a threat to heavily-armored vehicles. Support machine guns achieve superior accuracy at these ranges thanks to their stable, static mounts and built-in recoil compensation.^[1]

Ok, so it's heavier than man-portable machine guns? So, what do we have today that fit's that description?

20mm gun


.50 caliber compared to the 20mm cartridge


20mm anti aircraft machinegun


That's MORE than anti-infantry and these are vehicle mounted weapons and non-portable for infantry.

THAT's what our battlemechs carry.

[Vodrin Thales]

What I really think they need to do with both the MG and the flamer is give each weapon a 0.75 second burst for 2 damage when each is fired and give it a 3.25 second cooldown between bursts. Change the MG ammo to 200 per ton and have each burst consume 1 ammo. It instantly makes both weapons at least somewhat viable while still allowing them to work effectively within current game constructs.

[stjobe]

Terror Teddy, on 07 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

THAT's what our battlemechs carry.

Another interesting little tidbit to ponder for the "MGs are strictly anti-infantry" crowd is that today's current Main Battle Tank guns, the 120mm smoothbore guns, are called "light rifles" in the BattleTech universe and are incapable of damaging 'mechs.

So clearly the MG in the BattleTech universe is somehow more powerful than today's tank guns, since the MG does 2 damage to 'mechs.

It is very unfortunate that they didn't decide to call the weapon "machine cannon" or something else, since the name "machine gun" apparently evokes images of M249s in people's minds instead of the M61 or GAU-8 which would fit the stats of the MG much closer.

Either way, the "it's an anti-infantry weapon" line is a red herring, since it does do as much damage to 'mechs as an AC/2 - and nobody would argue that an AC/2 is an anti-infantry weapon.