340 replies to this topic

[Super Mono]

Prosperity Park, on 07 March 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

It's a good thing the authors of the video stated very specifically that the machine gun should not be used as a primary weapon, then. Yay for everybody agreeing!

I haven't taken the time to run a few drops in the testing grounds, but now I wanna see how well my old 2 PPC, 3 MG Hunchback-4G does...

it's great having light mechs that use machine guns as their primary armament being complete garbage because of this decision. Wouldn't want a variety of viable weapons in the game.

[Terror Teddy]

Super Mono, on 08 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

it's great having light mechs that use machine guns as their primary armament being complete garbage because of this decision. Wouldn't want a variety of viable weapons in the game.

You CAN make the primary weapon a flamer you know...I'll show myself out...

[coolnames]

Super Mono, on 08 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

it's great having light mechs that use machine guns as their primary armament being complete garbage because of this decision. Wouldn't want a variety of viable weapons in the game.

What? Did you not read the post that you just quoted? Did you not watch and listen to the video?

What???

[Super Mono]

coolnames, on 08 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

What? Did you not read the post that you just quoted? Did you not watch and listen to the video?

What???

Unless they dramatically upped the damage while I wasn't looking machine guns are still worthless. Tickling internal components doesn't do much when you can use an actual weapon to destroy the subsection and take out all the internal components with it. If the machine gun had the same damage output as a small laser a 4 mgun spider would be a decent harasser.

[XIRUSPHERE]

Finally met someone who knew what they were doing with MG last night, the second my armor was stripped and I tried to take cover my weapons were down. Normally you can torso twist and hope that crit doesn't pop your guns but it was pretty much instant. Kudos the the light that was pulling it off.

[Terror Teddy]

coolnames, on 08 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

What? Did you not read the post that you just quoted? Did you not watch and listen to the video?

30% less DPS than its energy counterpart the Small Laser.

2,33 MINUTES to emty 1 tonne of ammo for 80 damage.
1,20 minutes to do the same 80 damage with a Small Laser

Oh, I do have the chance to do crits if I by some miracle get through the armour with my 4MG spider against another light mech like the commando that has MORE firepower and can kill me with no problem.

So, tell me where it is a good balanced weapon when a 5 tonne lighter mech outperforms me in damage completely because HE can actually penetrate my armour WAY faster than I could ever do.

Oh, yes, I CAN do the 80 damage in 50 seconds with 4MG's but then I also need to spend 4 more tonnes of ammo.

XIRUSPHERE, on 08 March 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Finally met someone who knew what they were doing with MG last night, the second my armor was stripped and I tried to take cover my weapons were down. Normally you can torso twist and hope that crit doesn't pop your guns but it was pretty much instant. Kudos the the light that was pulling it off.

That's good - but if you faced him one on one would he manage to get through the armour you had by himself - with MG's?

[UberFubarius]

Perhaps allow MG a change to bypass partially damaged armor (not destroyed)?
The idea is that with so many bullets flying around, you're bound to find a kink in the armor and hit an internal.
Some quick number here.
Let's say MG gets a 1~5% change per hit of bypassing armor (1% at 99% armor to 5% at 1% armor).
That means, at 99% armor, MG has a 10% chance per second of having at least 1 bullet bypass the armor.
At near complete armor destruction, MG has a roughly 50% chance per second of having at least 1 bullet bypass the armor.

[Super Mono]

UberFubarius, on 08 March 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Perhaps allow MG a change to bypass partially damaged armor (not destroyed)?
The idea is that with so many bullets flying around, you're bound to find a kink in the armor and hit an internal.
Some quick number here.
Let's say MG gets a 1~5% change per hit of bypassing armor (1% at 99% armor to 5% at 1% armor).
That means, at 99% armor, MG has a 10% chance per second of having at least 1 bullet bypass the armor.
At near complete armor destruction, MG has a roughly 50% chance per second of having at least 1 bullet bypass the armor.

Not going to work, PGI wants to make a secondary weapon class that doesn't really exist in Battletech out of the machine guns. The only way this idea would work is if PGI invents a new weapon to fill this role and balances it accordingly.

In Battletech machine guns are a proper weapon and since this is where the majority of MWO's design comes from this is why machine guns are suffering.

[XIRUSPHERE]

Terror Teddy, on 08 March 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

30% less DPS than its energy counterpart the Small Laser.

2,33 MINUTES to emty 1 tonne of ammo for 80 damage.
1,20 minutes to do the same 80 damage with a Small Laser

Oh, I do have the chance to do crits if I by some miracle get through the armour with my 4MG spider against another light mech like the commando that has MORE firepower and can kill me with no problem.

So, tell me where it is a good balanced weapon when a 5 tonne lighter mech outperforms me in damage completely because HE can actually penetrate my armour WAY faster than I could ever do.

Oh, yes, I CAN do the 80 damage in 50 seconds with 4MG's but then I also need to spend 4 more tonnes of ammo.



That's good - but if you faced him one on one would he manage to get through the armour you had by himself - with MG's?

No, I would have roasted him alone as I was running quad large pulse in a stalker. He chose to run a support role and him and a buddy picked me apart. It was roughly one alpha to my arm while it was being machine gunned and the weapons dropped as soon as the alpha stopped. They then hit my other arm in the same fashion. Instead of wasting time on my CT they turned my stalker into 85 tons of useless AMS waiting to be finished off.

[Terror Teddy]

Super Mono, on 08 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Not going to work, PGI wants to make a secondary weapon class that doesn't really exist in Battletech out of the machine guns. The only way this idea would work is if PGI invents a new weapon to fill this role and balances it accordingly.

And the energy counterpart would be flamers then?

So instead of making flamers better they make MG's unable to go through armour during a 15 minute match without carrying 4+ tonnes of ammo.

[coolnames]

XIRUSPHERE, on 08 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

No, I would have roasted him alone as I was running quad large pulse in a stalker. He chose to run a support role and him and a buddy picked me apart. It was roughly one alpha to my arm while it was being machine gunned and the weapons dropped as soon as the alpha stopped. They then hit my other arm in the same fashion. Instead of wasting time on my CT they turned my stalker into 85 tons of useless AMS waiting to be finished off.

Are you making this up?? Your LPLS clearly were better than their MGs...how could this happen? /sarcasm

<3 Thanks for posting your MG positive experience!

Terror Teddy, on 08 March 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

That's good - but if you faced him one on one would he manage to get through the armour you had by himself - with MG's?

lol

Edited by coolnames, 08 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Vermaxx]

At this point I can only assume one or many devs got burned too many times in MW3/MW4 by MGs and flamers to remain objective about these guns in MWO.

That, or they've completely missed the point of MGs and flamers and insist on stuffing them into some nonexistent 'backup weapons category.'

That would be fine, if the Hunch 4G had two more energy hardpoints (or even ONE), and if the Raven 4X wasn't here, or the Spider 5K. PGI CHOSE how to implement MGs, making them largely ineffective in ANY role, and then further chose to implement mechs dependent on two-damage MGs to be competitive.

Seriously, the Raven 4X is terrible - you either go two larges and some missile backup, or mediums, missiles, and one real cannon. And even then it's still underperforming for the weight class. We won't even talk about the Spider because it cannot be saved.

[Lefty Lucy]

XIRUSPHERE, on 08 March 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Finally met someone who knew what they were doing with MG last night, the second my armor was stripped and I tried to take cover my weapons were down. Normally you can torso twist and hope that crit doesn't pop your guns but it was pretty much instant. Kudos the the light that was pulling it off.

If he were a 6 ML jenner he would have just killed you instead.

[BL00D RAVEN]

Who wins in a 1v1 fight a dragon with no armor or a spider with 4 MGs and 2tons of ammo?

[coolnames]

Vermaxx, on 08 March 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

At this point I can only assume one or many devs got burned too many times in MW3/MW4 by MGs and flamers to remain objective about these guns in MWO.

That, or they've completely missed the point of MGs and flamers and insist on stuffing them into some nonexistent 'backup weapons category.'

That would be fine, if the Hunch 4G had two more energy hardpoints (or even ONE), and if the Raven 4X wasn't here, or the Spider 5K. PGI CHOSE how to implement MGs, making them largely ineffective in ANY role, and then further chose to implement mechs dependent on two-damage MGs to be competitive.

Seriously, the Raven 4X is terrible - you either go two larges and some missile backup, or mediums, missiles, and one real cannon. And even then it's still underperforming for the weight class. We won't even talk about the Spider because it cannot be saved.

Bro, those mechs are not terrible. Maybe your perceived performance when playing them is, but that does not mean that other players cannot do well with them. Sure there could be better loadouts and variants, but there are viable strategies when playing them.

[Vermaxx]

The Dragon probably wins, but the Spider already "lost" in the sense that someone else did all the work while the entire enemy team ignored the Spider for the whole match, until he was the last one.

coolnames, on 08 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Bro, those mechs are not terrible. Maybe your perceived performance when playing them is, but that does not mean that other players cannot do well with them. Sure there could be better loadouts and variants, but there are viable strategies when playing them.

I'm tired of hearing about "viable strategies." I'm looking at the spreadsheet, and doing builds, and neither mech can function as an independent warrior like Mechwarrior is all about. They are support mechs. Well, the Raven 4X is far less gimped than the Spider 5K. Still, they're mechs designed around a very specific MG function, which is not functionally equivalent in MWO.

[Terror Teddy]

BL00D RAVEN, on 08 March 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Who wins in a 1v1 fight a dragon with no armor or a spider with 4 MGs and 2tons of ammo?

Gimme a spider with multiple energy mounts and max armour and I can dance around the MG's.

80 X 4 damage in 2,33 minutes to do full damage and loose 4 tonnes of ammo.

The point is that One VS One is broken for those with ballistic mounts on lighter mechs since even LIGHTER mechs than those can have more efficient weapons to actually do damage.

Why the hell should I be forced to have 4/5 of my spiders loadout as a weapon only useable as long as someone helps me to take down enemy armour before I can do some work.

AND you need plenty of ammo AND you need even more tonnage for it. There is no upgrades for such a mech to alleviate loss of ammo while someone with X4 small lasers can use double heatsinks and be far more efficient in less than half the time.

Withhout the NEED to crit something to take out the enemy.

Spider with X4 MG's emty 1 tonne of ammo in 50 seconds for 80 damage.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 08 March 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[coolnames]

Vermaxx, on 08 March 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

neither mech can function as an independent warrior like Mechwarrior is all about.

Are you saying that from experience? Or from your spreadsheets

[One Medic Army]

coolnames, on 08 March 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Are you saying that from experience? Or from your spreadsheets

I own a founders hunch G.
The only time I ever made it work decently was when I ignored the hunch completely and gave it 2large lasers and a medium.
I suppose now with endo/ferro/DHS I could throw an AC/5 on there as well.

The only thing you can do on a G you can't do on an H is mount multiple ballistics. Currently that means mounting 2x AC5, 2x AC2, or MGs.

[Tibs]

i loved my spider k with lar pukse and 4 mgs fun