340 replies to this topic

[Heeden]

Carrioncrows, on 10 March 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Any of them, all of them. AC2, AC5, AC10, LB10-X, UAC5, Guass....the list goes on and it turns out the Spider can fit all of them except for the AC20.

Which of those weighs 3 tons (including ammo)?

Quote

So you run circles around the map as other people shoot at you occasionaly doing 2-3 damage with your large laser and wait till someone's armor goes down to jump on it. Why not just take a jenner, raven, commando or another spider variant and outright kill them. Or slap a LB10-X on that Spider and kill those heavy mechs instead of doing a flash dance everytime you see a red triangle?

My LLas does 9 damage a shot, I think you're thinking of the SLas. A good match yields 250-300 damage and 1 or 2 kills. It may not be as flashy as a splat-cat but when it works it works very well, and it is a helluva lot of fun. I have Jenners if I want to get in the enemies face, but surely if I was driving one of those people would tell me to get a 3L because it is more effective, or a splat-cat or whatever other mech is deemed suitable for playing the game. Ultimately I'm not going to listen to people who's main point seems to be "stop having fun the way you want, and have fun the way I want you to".

Quote

Look, being forced to use a bad weapon doesn't make that weapon redeemable when the clouds part, sunshine comes down and for a brief moment that weapon was viable, because 99% of the time it's still a bad weapon.

I'm not forced to use it, I understand I could take BAP and AMS and be more effective in other ways, I just happen to find stripping enemies of their biggest guns to be more amusing and more useful than seeing slightly further or shooting a couple of missiles I've already run away from.

Quote

If you think being effective entails more than the damage and kills at the end of the match, then you're in the wrong game. Not your fault, not my fault it's the way the game is currently built and implemented. *shrug* If you are not doing damage you are not doing much, this game doesn't have the diversity and size of maps to make doing anything else viable.

I think you're mistaking "being effective" for "earning c-bills and xp". There is some overlap but they are not identical. An extreme example (which has little to do with machine-guns but did come about thanks to the role I chose for that mech) is the match where I earned almost nothing, because whilst the big fight was occuring I had to *** around and capture all the points before the enemy reached 750 resources. I earned pretty much nothing that match but I allowed my team to finish dismantling the enemy.

Quote

I could care less about min-maxing, what I care about is the Machine gun being a viable weapon which allows me to use "ALL" of my mechs to their potential. Instead I have to slow a Spider -5K down to 101 kph just to be able to "DO" something that amounts to more than just making noise.

Why would you do that? The beauty of the SDR is its speed and jumping, if you want a slow mech with a big ballistic grab a medium or something, the 5K is a quick mech with a big laser.

Quote

This utility you speak of is nothing more than an illusion based upon the hope that you are doing something.... sadly you are not.

Recognize that.

Realize it.

Wait, so when those guns turn red they're still equipped, and people just stop firing them to humour me?

Quote

And once you do, do what "MOST" people are doing...."ASKING PGI TO CHANGE IT"

NOW YOU ARE USING CAPITALS IT ALL MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

Quote

Don't be content to eat rotten bread and call it cake.

I think you mean to say "Don't be content eating food I don't like just because you like it".

Edited by Heeden, 10 March 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[coolnames]

Carrioncrows, on 10 March 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I did. Then I promptly disregarded it.

Intelligent uselessness is still useless.

And you expect others to not promptly disregard your own opinion?

Carrioncrows, on 10 March 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Look, being forced to use a bad weapon...

Carrioncrows, on 10 March 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I own a Spider-K, I like it. I don't run mg's on it because i also happen to like being "EFFECTIVE"

Are you contradicting yourself here? Sounds like you (as in you, yourself, with your own 5K) are not forced to use MGs.

And bro, just because you are not effective in a loadout, does not mean others cannot be under the same circumstances. Have some humility.

[Carrioncrows]

Everyone is different.

But one thing is true.

1. MG's Suck, they need to be fixed.

If you like MG's now you are only ever going to like it more when they become useful.

The only real challenge is getting PGI to fix them sometime this year.

coolnames, on 10 March 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

And bro, just because you are not effective in a loadout, does not mean others cannot be under the same circumstances. Have some humility.

There are lots of things to be humble about, being effective isn't one of them. But, telling other people you are effective when your not, that's just pure hubris.

And running 4 MG's on a spider and thinking your effective is the definition of hubris.

*shrug*

Like I said, if you like MG's now, you will only ever like them better when they get fixed.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 10 March 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[coolnames]

Carrioncrows, on 10 March 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

There are lots of things to be humble about, being effective isn't one of them. But, telling other people you are effective when your not, that's just pure hubris.

Huge assumption you just made there, but that is ok.

Thanks for all your input!

[Carrioncrows]

coolnames, on 10 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Huge assumption you just made there, but that is ok.

Hubris: /ˈhjuːbrɪs/, also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις, means extreme pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power

That pretty much sum's up anyone who "Thinks" they are effective with 4 MG's. Not a big assumption, hell not even a little one.

But your welcome.

Take care.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 10 March 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[Buckminster]

Sifright, on 10 March 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

could you build it in smurfy? I'd like to play with the design see if I can't build you something you might like more.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4e257c4df940b88

There she blows.

Keep in mind, I HATE lasers. I'm just terrible with them.

[coolnames]

Carrioncrows, on 10 March 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

Hubris: /ˈhjuːbrɪs/, also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις, means extreme pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power

That pretty much sum's up anyone who "Thinks" they are effective with 4 MG's. Not a big assumption, hell not even a little one.

But your welcome.

Take care.

From my point of view, that very same ancient Greek word applies to your own thinking on the subject bro.

<3

Buckminster, on 10 March 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4e257c4df940b88

There she blows.

Keep in mind, I HATE lasers. I'm just terrible with them.

Nice build

Only thing I would change is swapping some of the leg armor and putting into the center torso. Dunno, if you missed it or not when making the loadout in smurfy

[Team Leader]

While I don't agree with some of the name calling and petty arguments going on in this thread, I still don't feel like machine guns are being treated fairly. If they really need to, I think it's fine if they leave them as full component stripping only weapons in their current form, BUT ONY IF they provide some sort of alternative.

Armor Piercing Ammo, 500 Shots/Ton, 1.3 DPS, no special crit bonus. Works like DHS: you have either one type of the ammo or the other. Maybe you have to link individual machine guns with one type only, whatever.

This method, even if it breaks cannon, would
1) give light pilots a support weapon (what we have now, crit seekers)
2) give large mechs crit seeking weapons that wish to carry them
3) give light mechs a somewhat effective, light ballistic weapon comparable to a small laser
4) give large mechs a somewhat effective, light ballistic weapon to help aid in damage (machine gun arrays will let large mechs mount more, so it can even become more of a primary weapon if stacked enough) in addition to their other weapons

[AC]

Reading this whole thing has shown one fact.... .some people will argue for something just because they like to argue. sheesh.....

[Heeden]

I like the idea of machine-gun arrays. If they weighed half a ton and allowed you to mount two MGs on a single ballistic slot I could swap out the ERLLas for a MLas, extra ton of ammo and 8 MGs total, making for a more traditional brawler-type light. I'm unsure about whether the ammo-per-ton is okay under this system, the heat efficiency needs something to balance it. Maybe they could scrap the weight of the array (effectively making a double-machine-gun with the same stats but 20 rounds a second) to allow more ammo to be carried.

I don't like the idea of a direct damage buff to the MGs themselves because they could easily become overpowered. Yes they only deliver full DPS when you are facing the enemy, but for a skirmishing/harassing light you want to always be looking at the enemy to make sure they're not looking at you. Under these circumstances it is brilliant having no cool-down, if the enemy suddenly dodges you don't have to watch 80% of your next 3 seconds damage fly in to the sky, and there's no agonising moment where your enemy's juicy rear armour is perfectly aligned and your stupid guns take forever to recharge.

Don't forget my Spider that mounts 4 MGs also has room for a LPLas or ERLas (depending on how many jump-jets I take), buffing MGs to be as effective as SLas could make it very powerful for such an agile and heat-efficient mech.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Even at 1.4 DPS the MG is only "viable", and not even close to "Overpowered", and that is if they increase the damage while keeping the crit seeking stuff too.

The MG is supposed to be an effective weapon against armor, doing the same damage as an AC2. I do not expect the MG to equal the MWO AC2, but I do expect the MG to eventually become effective, or to be removed from the game entirely. Right now there is almost no reason to use an MG AT ALL. You are better served by taking AMS, more heatsinks or a larger weapon. And if you do not have room for any of that, you are no more effective with an MG (or 4) as you are without.

Try this: Drop your LL (or whatever weapon you use) and rely ONLY on the MGs and see how you do. Then run a mech with only 4 small lasers and compare. The MG should be just as useful as a small laser.

The SL is 0.5 tons, 3 damage 1 heat, 90m range. The MG is 2 damage, 1.5 tons (1 ton ammo) 90m range and no heat. (In TT)

In MWO the MG is .4 dps. It is the only weapon (with the possible exception of the flamer) that has had it's DPS reduced in MWO, everything else has had a significant buff. It is time for the MG to join the ranks of the useful weapons.

[Terror Teddy]

Carrioncrows, on 10 March 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Any of them, all of them. AC2, AC5, AC10, LB10-X, UAC5, Guass....the list goes on and it turns out the Spider can fit all of them except for the AC20.

"FIT" and be even close to effective is highly debateable.

I can fit the AC/10 and a medium laser IF i get a 100 engine AND strip some armour so I get a few tonnes of ammo and AMS.

5-54 km/h for that AC/10.

And forget the Gauss - you'll be literally useless and crippled - essentially a one gun turret.

[Carrioncrows]

Quote

From my point of view, that very same ancient Greek word applies to your own thinking on the subject bro.

I not trying to **** in your oatmeal nor is it personal, but the point is - MG's are broke.

They need fixed.

How to fix them is infinitely more enjoyable conversation than the humdrum we've been going over.

Personally I would say

Dmg: 0.2 dmg a round
Fire Rate: 10 rounds a sec
Ammo: 200 rounds per 1/2 ton of ammo. And yes you should be able to pack a 1/2 ton of ammo, or you can take a full ton they both require 1 slot though.

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

"FIT" and be even close to effective is highly debateable.

I can fit the AC/10 and a medium laser IF i get a 100 engine AND strip some armour so I get a few tonnes of ammo and AMS.

5-54 km/h for that AC/10.

And forget the Gauss - you'll be literally useless and crippled - essentially a one gun turret.

Your doing it wrong.

XL 170 engine - 100+ KPH
Endo
10 SHS
AC10 - (x2 tons of ammo)
medium laser

or

LB10-X (x3 tons of ammo)
Medium laser

or

Large laser
AC5 ( x2 tons of ammo)

or

Medium laser
UAC5 (x5 tons of ammo

But at the end of the day whatever you choose it sure as hell is a lot better than machineguns.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 10 March 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[SPencil]

I guess this belongs here:

[Sifright]

coolnames, on 10 March 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Dude, I super appreciate your posts. Well written and logical...pretty much identical to how I feel about the subject.

I have played many builds including a many variants and loadouts referred to as 'cheese.' (I even named my 3L Cheese )

They have lost their appeal...so I have been trying tough builds, including some of the ones that we have been discussing. And I have been finding success in many of them! It is all in good fun

You are such a god awful troll.

[MustrumRidcully]

SPencil, on 10 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I guess this belongs here:

The OP will just point that he is not saying the MG is useful against armour, but it's useful for its specialized role of "crit-seeking".

Did anyone ever see a Hunchback 4P on the training grounds? That's one of the few mechs I can think of that has a lot of items in one hit location. Showing how long it takes to destroy all those Medium Lasers might be a better video.

Anyone can think of any other mechs with a "full" hit location that often appears on the training grounds? It could have lots of heat sinks as well... K2 for example...

[Sixart]

Machine guns are not for doing damage to armor or structure. They are for doing damage to components. Other weapons do a much better job of armor and structure but not components. Apples and oranges.

Watch my video's of my 5K and tell me I'm not helping: http://youtu.be/AbadgNUI7OY

[coolnames]

Sifright, on 10 March 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

You are such a god awful troll.

So far, you take the BM cake.

[Sifright]

Buckminster, on 10 March 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4e257c4df940b88

There she blows.

Keep in mind, I HATE lasers. I'm just terrible with them.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5dfa06a221b165e

You only need the one mg for the crit effect at 5DPS to strip internal components.

build changed to give you full CT armour and an extra dub.

you end up with .31 tonnage free.
at the cost of a MG tonne of AMS ammo.

Sixart, on 10 March 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Machine guns are not for doing damage to armor or structure. They are for doing damage to components. Other weapons do a much better job of armor and structure but not components. Apples and oranges.

Watch my video's of my 5K and tell me I'm not helping: http://youtu.be/AbadgNUI7OY

another player who doesn't understand how the game works in any reliable way.

no you aren't being helpful in your 5k. I'd much rather have a jenner who is pumping 10dps out burst and then sustaining 4.

[coolnames]

Sixart, on 10 March 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Machine guns are not for doing damage to armor or structure. They are for doing damage to components. Other weapons do a much better job of armor and structure but not components. Apples and oranges.

Watch my video's of my 5K and tell me I'm not helping: http://youtu.be/AbadgNUI7OY

Great video bro!

Sifright, on 10 March 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

another player who doesn't understand how the game works in any reliable way.

no you aren't being helpful in your 5k. I'd much rather have a jenner who is pumping 10dps out burst and then sustaining 4.

His video is 7 min long...you did not watch it BM nonstop from you, hommie G. Give it a rest.