340 replies to this topic

[coolnames]

UPDATE: SIXART'S RAD SPIDER-5K VIDEO. COMPONENT DESTRUCTION IN ACTION!!



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TAKE TWO MINUTES OF YOUR PRECIOUS TIME AND WATCH THE VIDEO <3



EDIT: 1 MINUTE SIMPLE COMPARISON VIDEO



EDIT #2:

Mike Townsend, on 08 March 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

I don't really get how there's any disagreement here.

I am pretty sure everyone agrees that MGs (as they are in the game now) are not for direct damage...which is what you proved in your test. Please watch the video.

Mike Townsend, on 08 March 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Why would I want two tons worth of weapon that can destroy one component in 20 seconds and kill a mech in 34 when I could have two tons of weapons that can kill the same mech in 8 seconds?

In fact, you do not want to use MGs to deal damage. They are used to kill components.

You use other weapons as the main damage dealers and gain an advantage over your enemy by destroying the components as soon as they are exposed and under MG fire.

The disagreement is that others think using that 2+ tons is better used elsewhere whether it be heatsinks, lasers, equipment, engine, armor, etc. Also, because of this disagreement, others are hating on the 3C, 5K, and 4X.

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A quick video GameGenie and I made in response to all the machinegun hate for the past couple weeks. We have been using them since they were buffed...and we love them. They work really well when stacked in a scout mech for destroying weapons.

Taken from the patch notes:

- The Machine Gun has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the Machine Gun crits, it will deal 12.5x the amount of normal damage per bullet to an internal item.
- The Machine Gun crit damage is 12.5 x 0.04 = 0.5 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 1.5.
- Due to the rate of fire, the Machine Gun is now a heavy crit seeker and will be VERY effective vs. items on non-armoured locations.

GameGenie brought up a great point in the video: having 4 machineguns on a loadout is what makes them viable for disarming purposes. Results will be reduced the less you stack (duh).

Try them out in your scout

Edited by coolnames, 11 March 2013 - 12:29 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

I'd rather take actual guns that let me blow the other guy up.
And a mech that's not a waste of a team slot.

[Psikez]

Machine Guns are bad and you should feel bad.

[coolnames]

Vassago Rain, on 07 March 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

I'd rather take actual guns that let me blow the other guy up.
And a mech that's not a waste of a team slot.

Really bro, you replied that quick? The video is over 1 min long

[Psikez]

coolnames, on 07 March 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Really bro, you replied that quick? The video is over 1 min long

Go check your analytics, most people won't watch the full amount of anything.

[Davers]

Psikez, on 07 March 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Go check your analytics, most people won't watch the full amount of anything.

This is true. I'll rent a 2 hour **** movie and after 15 minutes I'll lose complete interest.

[FupDup]

My dual-AC/2 Dakkaraven 4X is not amused by this thread.

[Vassago Rain]

Psikez, on 07 March 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Go check your analytics, most people won't watch the full amount of anything.

There's no reason to watch any kind of defense video of machineguns. They don't do enough to justify taking as primary on anything, period.

Mechs that can only ever really take them aren't good, period.

My lurmboat atlas used to take two machineguns to strip dangerous guns while I waited for my large lasers to cycle. Well, okay. 2 tons total for two machineguns and 2000 bullets on a 100 tonner? Not so bad. Not good, mind, but not terrible.

Now that we have better hit detection on large lasers? I've shifted stuff around for another dub.

[General Taskeen]

Its for taking out internals because its bad game balance design.

Yeah, we get what people are saying that they are "for destroying internals." That's how they are programmed, currently, and it was a bad design choice. Sorry if we sound harsh, but an MG is meant to damage Mech Armor with the reality that 92% of the weapons in MWO damage Mech Armor. For a direct TT comparison, they also damaged Mech Armor.

If you played Mech Warrior 3, you'd probably say, "Yeah, MG's are for destroying armor at short range," due to a better game balance decision they made for that game where all weapons have an equal chance of damaging armor within their respective range or other limitations.

Edited by General Taskeen, 07 March 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

General Taskeen, on 07 March 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Its for taking out internals because its bad game balance design.

Yeah, we get what people are saying that they are "for destroying internals." That's how they are programmed, currently, and it was a bad design choice. Sorry if we sound harsh, but an MG is meant to damage Mech Armor.

If you played Mech Warrior 3, you'd probably say, "Yeah, MG's are for destroying armor at short range," due to a better game balance decision they made for that game.

When actual tabletop battletech has better balance for something than your game, you might wanna reconsider your approach.

[Psikez]

Vassago Rain, on 07 March 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

There's no reason to watch any kind of defense video of machineguns. They don't do enough to justify taking as primary on anything, period.

Gotta check for sarcasm purposes

Any tonnage devoted my machineguns would best be devoted elsewhere. (As Vassago says even a DHS)

[Corbon Zackery]

I've been doing test with MG in the training Grounds and it took about a full ton of ammo to pop a trial Cicada that has like 3 tons of armor so I'm on board for a dmg. increase to .8 or even 1 its hard to judge because of the rate of fire and ammo. But they do need a buff of some sort not just crit. dmg.

[Vassago Rain]

Corbon Zackery, on 07 March 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I've been doing test with MG in the training Grounds and it took about a full ton of ammo to pop a trial Cicada that has like 3 tons of armor so I'm on board for a dmg. increase to .8 or even 1 its hard to judge because of the rate of fire and ammo. But they do need a buff of some sort not just crit. dmg.

If they absolutely won't raise the damage, they should triple the firerate.

[Cest7]

Go for 4 or don't bother bringing any lol

[jakucha]

One problem is actually stripping the armor when you have mostly MGs. It'll take a while, not to mention even longer in a real game because the enemy mech will actually be moving and shooting back.

[Team Leader]

I really really really want machine guns to be good, I really do. I just wish they did 1 DPS at least. Seriously.

[ICEFANG13]

MGs are worthless. Why bring a weapon that can crit internals instead of weapons that can blow the arm off?

Of course, 1 MG isn't close in weight or slots to an A/C-20, but then again, 1 Medium, heck Small Laser will remove the armor and kill the part far before the MG can remove the armor and kill the part. The only weapons this is really helpful on, are mechs you would rather be killing by just killing anyway (LRM boat? Why not just alpha it in the back? Light mechs? Psh. A/C-20? Not like it survives long enough to justify bringing them).

That being said, once engines can crit, if you bring 4 MGs, you should be able to instantly kill mechs who are exposed.

Engine 15 HP
Machine Guns, bring four, Crit chance of triple crit is 24% per 1/10 second, damage 1/10 of engine HP (1.5). So nearly every 4th shot (2.5 of those a second), you (based on probability) will deal 1/10, so (10/2.5) in 4 seconds, assuming probability works and you have a little luck (ie 1% luck), it should kill in 4 seconds to an exposed mech. That doesn't even factor in smaller crits (which a single one has 39% chance to crit once).

If you have 4, that's like a heatless MPL, but then again, it weighs a ton more, and takes up 5X slots.

Ah they should have just buffed them to be small ballistics and not crap.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Vassago Rain, on 07 March 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

There's no reason to watch any kind of defense video of machineguns. They don't do enough to justify taking as primary on anything, period.

It's a good thing the authors of the video stated very specifically that the machine gun should not be used as a primary weapon, then. Yay for everybody agreeing!

I haven't taken the time to run a few drops in the testing grounds, but now I wanna see how well my old 2 PPC, 3 MG Hunchback-4G does...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 07 March 2013 - 06:00 PM.

[coolnames]

jakucha, on 07 March 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

One problem is actually stripping the armor when you have mostly MGs. It'll take a while, not to mention even longer in a real game because the enemy mech will actually be moving and shooting back.

You are right. That's why I run the 4xMG loadout when I play with GameGenie. He does the the dmg while I harrass and disarm in the process.

Team Leader, on 07 March 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

I really really really want machine guns to be good, I really do. I just wish they did 1 DPS at least. Seriously.

Do you really think that destroying an unprotected weapon in a fraction of a second is not good?

[Team Leader]

http://mwomercs.com/...uns-have-1-dps/
vote here please

coolnames, on 07 March 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Do you really think that destroying an unprotected weapon in a fraction of a second is not good?

Or just use real damage and kill him yourself.

While I have had the wonderful opportunity to disarm a 3 lrm15 DDC, he was standing still and my medium laser did most of the work. Luckily he let me have at his back armor for about 30 seconds. I love the sounds, I love the look, I love the no heat, I love the huge ammo count, but machine guns should still be better.

Edited by Team Leader, 07 March 2013 - 06:07 PM.