42 replies to this topic

[Tenoctris]

I've always seen the TT MW as a basic guideline for MWO. It gives us a base structure to work with but isn't meant to be directly translated word for word into MWO. In my opinion PGI has a lot of wiggle room in terms of how they translate TT into MWO. That said....

ECM in MWO is way way...off. I've never played a MW game in any format where ECM functioned like it does here. I don't think it is necessarily 100% OMGOPNERFIT. It bothers me but it doesn't ruin my gameplay...the biggest bother for me is how different it is. Almost every aspect of the game has been translated pretty damn well so far. Then ECM was released and it was totally different then what I was expecting. I was actually really looking forward to more electronic warfare items...I find that whole aspect of combat intriguing.
The tonnage vs gain with MWO ECM is crazy. For 1.5tons and 2 crit spots you gain this magical harrypotterbubbleofnothingness which gives you and your team a distinct advantage over your opponents. ECM does TOO much. It almost seems like PGI took aspects of every electronic warfare item in TT and meshed their most powerful attributes together into what ECM is now. Are there are no plans to bring out AECM or stealth armor? ECM in its current form is pretty impressive I can't imagine what AECM(or null system) would do in MWO....double bubble size? no counters at all? hacks enemy mechs into shooting their teammates?

I said before in the ECM feedback thread that ECM doesn't have to be strict TT rules. If PGI wants to make ECM and other advanced gear unique in function I'm all for that. But it needs to be within more common sense reason. Make ECM interfere with sensors and lock ons not block them completely. Slower target info time, slower lock ons, mechs within the sphere cannot transmit target data to the team. BAP should decrease or negate one of the penalties of ECM. Perhaps that none ECM light equipped with a BAP unit can transmit ECM protected mechs data to their team but with an increased lock on penalty. Enemy units within the sphere will experience random sensor failure. Meaning they can lock on and maintain a lock and target info but their lock will fluctuate on occasion causing the lock to go back out to yellow just a little and then back into full lock. The mech carrying the ECM could be given enhanced protection while those being protected by the ECM are more vulnerable but are still receiving a pretty nice bonus. Those are just a few random ideas out of an entire ocean you can use to make ECM be a unique PGI creation.

I really hope PGI goes back and takes a look at ECM and its basic function.

Edited by Tenoctris, 09 March 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Livewyr]

It's not just ECM that needs fixed- it's the whole electronics package.


Electronics:

What we observed and discussed was the electronics and their priority and balance in relation to things they directly effect, and the things they indirectly effect.

Artemis, TAG, BAP, NARC, ECM
which effect-
LRMs, SSRMs
which in turn effects-
AMS.

My fellows and I approached each question in regards to balance: Is there any reason I shouldn't bring this? Why not? Some were obvious, but I will say them anyway for the purpose of balance.

Why would I bring:
Artemis: Do I have missiles? takes up 1-6 extra critical spaces, 1-6 extra tons. (as of right now)
TAG: Am I going to be maneuverable enough to use it? Am I going to need it? (That one is sticky right now because it is currently the only persistent counter to the current implementation of ECM at range.) It takes up a ton, a laser hardpoint, and a critical spot.
BAP: Do I have missiles? Lock-on time doesn't help me without missiles. The sensor range bonus can be (almost) gained with the Advance sensor modules. Information gathering can be achieved by module. Is 1.5 tons and 2 critical spaces worth detecting a shut down mech within 120? (Is that needed often enough?)
NARC: Do I have missiles? Do I know someone on my team has missiles? Am I going to keep view on target? Does it stay long enough to be worth getting close to do it?
ECM: There is no better use of 1.5tons and two critical slots than ECM, (unable to be detected or targeted outside 200-250 meters, disrupts any electronic within 180 meters, can only be truly effortlessly countered by another of itself) and there is no drawback. One could wager very very heavily that if ECM were available to every mech, no matter what the mech was, it would be brought to the battlefield.
LRMs: What are the odds of the enemy having at least one ECM? (high) Do I have TAG? Will someone on my team have TAG or ECCM? (PPCs don't matter much to LRMs because the 4 seconds isn't long enough to get a lock and get LRMs to target before the disruption wears off.)
SSRMs: Will I be fighting light or fast mechs? (90% yes) Will they have ECM? Not guaranteed, but likely. Will I have ECM?
AMS: Will missiles be a problem? (possibly) If I'm fast, I probably don't need it, If I'm ECM'd I really don't need it. I should bring it if I'm slow and don't have ECM. (Is it effective enough to be worth the space/weight?)

TL;DR for section:
TAG, NARC, BAP, ECM, Artemis, LRMs, SSRMs, and AMS are all interrelated: (reasons not to bring them)
Artemis- Needs missiles.
TAG- Takes up energy hardpoint, must be held on target.
BAP- Half of Job done by Modules (no weight, no crits) other half needs missiles.
NARC- 3 tons, low Ammo/Ton, short range, must be watched LoS to work. TAG does that for less.
ECM- No reason not to bring it. Plenty of reasons to do so.
LRMs: Negated by ECM, requires training TAG on target outside 180 meters.
SSRMs: requires +180, -200-250 range when dealing with ECM.
AMS: requires incoming missiles (to be effective) not necessary with ECM or speed.

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Now for a breakdown of the logic trail for each assessment. (including their relationship to others) You don't need to read this to get to the end, but I would appreciate if you did so you get a better idea of how we got here.

Artemis is a great tool for LRMs, it balances out its boost in accuracy with taking up more tonnage and more space. It also has the limitation of needed Line of Sight to be beneficial. The decision to use it is based on its benefit of accuracy versus the cost in space and weight on your mech, and obviously, if you're carrying non-streak missiles.

TAG is a great tool for LRMs, scouts, and currently it works against ECM. (outside 180 meters) It balances it boost in accuracy by needing LoS to the target, requiring an energy hardpoint, weighing a ton, and taking up 1 critical space. The biggest cost of TAG though is that it requires you to keep the laser on the target to benefit from it. There is not much else you can do aside from firing at that target while using TAG on it. The decision to use it is based on likelihood of needing it, if you're a brawler or sniper, bringing TAG is purely for your teammates who may or may not have missiles, same for being a light mech, energy points are in demand for light mechs, and SSRMs don't work inside 180 meters (of an ECM mech) anyways.

BAP is good for missile carriers and scouts. However, with the Sensor range, and Target info modules, as well as the Target Decay modules, most of its job is already done by modules, which are weightless and don't take up critical spots. The shutdown mech detection is all its own as well, but shut-down ambushes aren't frequent enough to be worth 1.5 tons for 120 meter range and LoS requirement. The only thing BAP remains solely useful for are missiles for the lock on time. So unless you're bringing missiles, or are scouting and want to use modules for other things, BAP just isn't worth the weight and space.

NARC just seems to be all around outclassed by TAG. I suspect this is due to a current programming limitation of having to keep LoS on the mech to detect it, but regardless of that: It benefits missiles by giving them a bonus to accuracy in its current form. It has the advantage of not requiring the laser on the target, but still suffers the disadvantage of having to keep LoS to the target. It also doesn't have longevity for something that requires so much (comparative) tonnage and a missile hardpoint to work. Currently it works until the mech takes 35 points of damage: roughly 20-25 LRMs hitting the mech. As one who used to use LRMs a lot, that doesn't seem worth the cost of getting close, putting the single missile on target, and maintaining LoS to the target, not when compared to TAG who can do that indefinitely, from longer range with only a little more effort. for 3-'x' tons lighter and requiring a laser hard-point instead of a missile hard-point.

ECM is excellent, regardless of situation. It gives the bearer stealth, and missile immunity (through protection from detection and locks) outside of four small exceptions: To get around ECM, one must stay between 180 and 200 meters (250 with Adv Sensor) from the ECM carrying mech. To counter ECM, one must bring their own ECM and get within 180 meters, keep a TAG laser trained on the mech from outside 180 meters, or one must hit the ECM carrying mech with a PPC for a 4-second disruption of ECM. The workarounds and counters to the benefits of ECM require: Precision distance on a dynamic battlefield, one's own ECM in ECCM mode, keeping a laser constantly trained on the ECM mech, or hitting that mech with a PPC every four seconds. To have all the benefits of invisibility to sensors and virtual missile immunity, ECM requires only 1.5 tons of mech weight, and 2 critical spaces of the mech. ECM can be placed anywhere in a mech except the head, for the weight of AMS or BAP. After the mechlab, it requires no special attention from the pilot outside of switching it to ECCM if needed. It doesn't need to be activated, it doesn't need to be trained on a target, it doesn't need to be at any special range (outside of the 20-70 meter window) and is constant. The only reason one wouldn't bring ECM to the battlefield is because they don't want to drive the 2D, 3L, 3M, or D-DC.

LRMs right now are good, outside of any situation regarding ECM. They have very high damage and (with support) can be fired from behind cover. That being said, they (and SSRMs) are what mech ECM a veritable requirement in games. They have very high damage for their weight, but pay for it in slow missile speed and requirement of lock. Due to ECM and incoming missile warnings, they're almost useless on all but the newest players. One might bring missiles if they are in a grouo with ECM and/or TAG, and even then, the odds are still stacked against them. (However, if there is no ECM on the enemy team, they become the predator weapon of the match, this too is bad.)

SSRMs right now are primarily in the realm of ECM mechs, as those are the only mechs who can fairly reliably use them. If that missile/ECM mech runs into another ECM mech, he can switch to ECCM, and barring another enemy ECM in the area, can use his SSRMs freely. This ofcourse puts him at risk while ECCM is active, but that is countered by switching between ECM and ECCM at appropriate times to balance using his missiles, and protecting him from enemy missiles. A Jenner might as well not bring SSRMs and bring SRM4s instead, this ofcourse gives the SSRM mech the advantage of unerring shot. This brings us to the other problem with SSRMs, the unerring shot. In TT that was good because the battlefield was mostly static, with limiting factors on dynamic movement. (SRMS only had so much chance to miss when launched at a target in TT) In this fully dynamic battlefield, SRMs have only so much chance to hit. The advantage gap between SRMs and SSRMs jumped wildly in the conversion to a fully dynamic battlefield.

AMS: This works about as it should, reducing missile volleys without the pilot having to do anything. That being said, it isn't even a contender with ECM, and with current missile damage, it simply isn't enough without having 3-4 AMS's in one area. It mostly isn't needed or worth it with ECM on the battlefield.

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Now for (our) suggestions to resolve the above issues. (some of them are already in place but just reiterated to make it clearer)

Artemis: Give the effected LRM Launchers and SRM Launchers a 35% accuracy boost. (LRM Launchers must be in LoS of targeted.) Boost LRM locking speed. SRM Launchers + Art won't benefit from Artemis while within 180 meters of an ECM Mech. Artemis would also not benefit from TAG.


TAG: Give the effected LRM a 15% accuracy boost (on the TAG'd mech). As is so currently, it shouldn't have any effect while within 180 meters of an ECM.


NARC: This one is a bit more difficult an is two part.
If this is possible: Make the NARC'd mech detected/lockable by every mech with LRM launchers for 35 seconds or until the NARC is destroyed (recieving 125 missile damage). Regardless of LoS by any mech. (it is a beacon)Give effected missiles a 25% accuracy boost.
If that is not possible then: Increase the accuracy of missiles that are locked onto the NARC'd mech by 35% until the mech has recieved 125 missile damage.
Regardless of the above: NARC should act like Artemis for SRMs and include even a slight homing ability on SRM missiles. (nothing drastic, maybe a 10-15 degree possible deviation from original trajectory.)
It should not effect Streak missiles at all.


AMS: We think AMS should be 30% more destructive for missiles in proximity both SRM, SSRM, and LRM. Basically firing at the same rate, but doing 30% more damage to have more effect and faster than currently.


BAP: We think this needs a major overhaul. When asked, most players think of BAP as the yang to ECM's yin.
We suggest doing a few things to BAP: As it does now, it should increase detection/locking range by 30%, it should decrease the locking time by 30% (for SSRMS and LRMs) and it should provide Target mech Data faster. It should also continue to detect shut down mechs within 120 meters.
We think it should also: Detect ANY enemy mech within 90-120 meters. (90 meters if there is very solid terrain between the BAP and the target(Terra Firma)- 120 meters if there are buildings and such between the BAP and the enemy mech.) This would give BAP more of a presence for scout mechs probing a location for a lance. This ofcourse would be nullfied by ECM.
We think it should be only BAP that is informed that it is being Jammed by ECM, rather than each mech. (it should get the low signal bars.) This way it continues it's interaction with ECM and plays a role in information warfare.
We think that BAP (and any friendly mech within 120 meters of the BAP) should be informed of being targeted at any range within its detection range, whereas standard sensors would only be informed of being targeted if the targeting mech is within 500 meters.
We think that BAP (and any friendly mech within 120 meters of the BAP) should be informed of incoming missiles as soon as they're launched whereas standard sensors would only be informed once the missile reach 500 meters away.
We think that BAP should give more detailed information on an enemy mech than standard sensors. This could be approached two ways:
1: Remove the weapon readout from standard sensors and only give the Mech type and paper doll to them, while giving BAP what we have now in regards to weapons, electronics, etc.
2: Keep the current information setup (to keep the usefulness of related modules) and add current weapon locations for the weapon list on the paper doll. (make the paperdoll 10% larger on the hud, and add 2-3 letter symbols to the components. (SL for small laser, SPL, for Small Pulse Laser, L5 for LRM5, L20 for LRM20, EPC for ERPPC, SM4 for SRM4.. SR2 for Streak SRM 2, GR for Gauss Rifle, A10 for AC10 etc etc..)
This could be togglable to point out equipment locations (AMS, ECM, BAP, etc..)
Also togglable to point out armor/structure percentages
3 different modes of information gathering.
Now for the downsides and counters: this would make the BAP mech detectable 10% farther for standard-sensors, and 20% farther enemy BAP. Ofcourse, this would all be countered in varying degrees by ECM, explained in the ECM section.. As will countering "ghost mode"
I think due to this upgrade, BAP should be reduced to certain variants and chassis just as ECM is now (but more variants).


ECM: ECM should not make a mech undetectable or unlockable outside of 180 meters.
We think it should nullify the detection range boost of BAP. (so BAP doesn't get the 30% boost to detecting mechs carrying ECM or being within its 180 meter bubble.)
We think it should nullify the lock-time boost from BAP and Artemis
We think it should nullify the Accuracy boosts of Artemis and NARC, it should also remove the bonuses of TAG when within 180 meters of the TAG'ing mech. It should disable NARC altogether (if it gains the non-LoS lock ability)
It should nullify target sharing when within 180 meters of an enemy mech. (Meaning the enemy mech can lock onto the ECM mech, but all his allies see is a red arrow, or at best a red box with ???? for information.)
It should retain the ability to entirely counter enemy ECMs. (ECCM)
Ghost mode: If possible, we would like to give ECM a "ghost" mode to toggle to where it logically generates false positives on the minimap making the false positive targets logical wouldn't be easy. (a bunch of signatures doing a discoball around one signature would remove the meta effect.)
However this mode would also hinder lockon by one of two ways:
Simple way: just increasing the time required.
Challenging way: Have the pilot need to rotate through a random number of the false positive targets to launch missiles at the real one.
The effects of Ghost mode would be countered by BAP. (BAP would identify false targets as such and mark them on the minimap as false- for the mech with BAP, and anymechs within 120 meters.)
With this adjustment, we think ECM could be given to more variants and therefore increase mech diversity while making the electronics more balanced. Variant selection for ECM and BAP capabilities might also be used as a balancing factor, similar to how tweaks are now.

Now for the weapon system changes:
Missiles in general: Make any non Artemis/Streak missile "NARC capable" including Standard LRMs and Standard SRMs. This would allow standard missiles to benefit from NARC, but not stack the effect of Artemis on that. Also reduce the "knock" of missiles, but make them cummulative. (Ex: Getting hit by a couple of missiles SRM, LRM, or SSRM would give you barely a twitch, but getting hit with more and more missiles at the same time would give you progressively more violent knocking.)

LRMs, currently when ECM isn't on the field LRMs become the apex predator weapon on the battlefield, so naturally if you adjust the ECM so it isn't missile immune, LRMs would become the predator again. We would recommend 2 changes to LRMs:
1: Reduce the damage from 1.8 to 1.3-1.5 damage per missile and give ordinary missiles a standard semi-accurate spread. This would help keep the missiles from becoming the predator weapon on the battlefield.
2: Increase the missile speed so that LRMs get to target faster.. perhaps 30-50% faster. (It would balance the weapon's damage adjustment and accuracy boost adjustments against other weapons to keep them viable. With them getting to the target faster the target mech can still get to target, he just doesn't have all day, and the missile firing mech doesn't have to spend 3-7 seconds after firing staring at the mech. This allows the missiles to be more viable on non-missile boat mechs as the missiles wouldn't be as much of a commitment.)

SSRMs, currently SRMS are the worst thing that can happen to a light mech. (especially if the 6SSRM2 Catapult A1s return.) We think to respsect the change from TT to Dynamic battlefield, SSRMs should be reduced in agilty where they still track, but are limited in capable trajectory diviations to 55-60 degrees. This way the streaks still keep the extreme accuracy, but aren't flawless. They would be defeated by shooting at a mech from an extreme angle, or defeated by a mech using agility to avoid them.

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TL;DR Reader's Digest version of the suggestions:
Artemis: LRMs/SRMs 35% accuracy boost. LRMs must have LoS. LRMs lock faster. Not compatible with TAG/NARC.
TAG: LRM 15% accuracy boost.
NARC: Option 1: Mech detectable regardless of sight for 35 seconds or 125 missile damage with 25% accuracy boost. Give SRMs 35% Accuracy boost towards mech and slight homing (10-15 degree deviation.)
---------Option 2: If sight needed, boost LRM accuracy 35% until mech recieves 125 missile damage.
AMS: Boost rate of Missile reduction by 30%
BAP: Increase detection/lock range 30%. Decrease locktime 30% (LRMs & SRMs) Gain mech data faster. Detect ANY mechs within 90-120m. (90 for terra firma LoSBlock, 120 for building LoSBlock)
BAP and friendlies inside of 180m Informed of ECM jam. Informed of Inc. Missile at launch. Informed of Targeted within detection range. (Standard sensors changed: not informed of ECM Jam, Inc Missile until 500 meters away, Targeted unless 500 meters away) BAP gives detailed paper doll: Weapons/equipment/armor location/status readouts. See actual BAP section for details.
BAP detectable 10% farther by Standard Sensors, 20% farther by enemy BAP. All effects countered by ECM within 180 meters.
ECM: Nullifies all effects of BAP within 180 meters. (Nullifies detection boost on ECM mech) Nullifies Artemis accuracy and lock boost. Nullfies BAP within 180m. Nullfies TAG within 180m. Nullifies target sharing within 180 meters. Counters ECM within 180m. (ECCM)
Ghost mode: Toggled ECM mode. Adds false positives to minimap. Hinders missile lock. (Extends lockon time, or creates decoys to cycle through.) Countered by BAP: differentiates false positives on map for all, counters missile hindering for BAP, or mechs within 120m of BAP.
Variants: Increase number of ECM variants, restrict BAP to certain variants.
Missiles: Non-Streak/Artemis missiles NARC capable by default. Reduced knock, made cummulative.
LRMs: Reduce damage to 1.3-1.5. Increase projectile speed by 30-50%
SSRMs: Reduce agility to 55-60 degree trajectory deviation.

[Kartr]

Kousagi, on 08 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

If you knew ALL of the differences from MWO and TT you would notice your argument is moot. Also, If you want to go through ALL of the rule books for every single little rule and lore standpoint for every single system that is featured in MWO, you would notice quite a few things are changed....

I fail to see how differences from TT makes my argument moot. The TT is the starting point for balance because its had 25+ years to figure out what works and what doesn't. Some things cannot be the same obviously because of different mediums however ECM is not one of those things.

Kousagi, on 08 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

Kinda like how LRM's lock on in the first place, since TT DO NOT lock on in the sense you are thinking of. LRM's are NOT a Seeker type guidance system, They are commonly refereed to as a Semi-guided missile in lore as well. So naturally Since TT LRM's have a Self contained guidance system, ECM does not do anything to them, but MWO LRM's how ever do not have a Self contained guidance system. Easy way to display this is, MWO LRM's lose trace of the target when the Mech loses track of the target, which means the Mech itself is what is guiding the missile, which means a ECM would be able to interfere with the communication from the mech to the LRM. Now, this is from a Lore stand point.

How do you know what I'm thinking? Are you a telepath?

Where does it say the guidance for TT LRMs is in the missiles? If that were the case then Artemis which is mounted on the 'Mech! wouldn't affect the missiles since, you know, its not part of the supposed internal guidance you claim they use. You know you make a lot of unwarranted assumptions. You're also pretty dam arrogant and condescending, trying to explain LRMs like I'm an ID-10T while making wildly inaccurate assumptions.

Also real life note, semi-guided munitions like the AIM-7 Sparrow or the Hellfire anti-tank missile have to be guided by an outside entity. In the case of the AIM-7 the launching craft has to keep its radar on the target so that the AIM-7 can use the returns to home in. In the case of the Hellfire someone has to keep a laser on the target. Fully guided munitions are usually referred to as "fire and forget" where you lock the target fire it and don't have to guide it to its target because it has a fully self contained guidance package. So being semi-guided munitions LRMs most likely have to be guided on to target by the launching vehicle.

TT is pretty vague how LRMs work, all we know is that the pilot targets an enemy 'Mech and fires and some of the missiles hit. Sometimes he targets the enemy 'Mech and none of his missiles hit. We know that they are guided from the 'Mech (because of Artemis) as well as being able to lock on to lasers and beacons broadcasting from the enemy unit. However since they are semi-guided and not "fire and forget" weapons they lack a self contained guidance unit.

All this means that MWO's treatment of LRMs is probably fairly accurate. The 'Mech communicates the target to the missiles in flight trying to guide as many as possible onto target. Artemis helps by providing more dedicated computing power ensuring that more missiles can be successful guided, while TAG and Narc Beacons light up the target to make it easier for the missiles rudimentary guidance to acquire the target the 'Mech is guiding them towards. Some missiles hit, some miss, some hit buildings in between the launcher and target and sometimes the pilot loses his lock and the missiles miss altogether.

Kousagi, on 08 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

With that said however, Please do shut up... TT is a base line for balance. now all of it translates well in to real time combat, which is why some things get changed. Get over it. PGI is balancing the game for playability and fun. Which is the correct way to go about it, not strict adherence to the TT game rules.

I'll shut up when you shut up you arrogant little *#$@&!

Yes TT is a baseline for balance and ECM is so far off that baseline it doesn't even begin to approached balanced. ECM should cancel the Artemis and Narc bonus, and cancel the BAPs effects while letting BAP equipped 'Mechs know they are being jammed. And that is all they should do.

This whole stealth field for their team and blocking LRM usage (you can't target the 'Mech which is obviously not what is supposed to happen given you can still target them and hit with LRMs in TT) as well as preventing SSRM locks completely destroys the intent behind the Guardian ECM Suite and frankly makes it extremely overpowered and broken.

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

This is MWO.

Things are different here. [...]What about indirect LRM fire? Sounds awesome, shooting them straight into the enemy base right at the start, and there being nothing to do about it,

Oh, and when your armor fails, every hit to a component should automatically remove it.

We have indirect LRM fire. When you are behind a building dukeing it out with my buddy and I'm launching LRMs over the building on to you to support him I am engaging in indirect LRM fire since I don't have a line of sight on you.

Pretty sure that component destruction is in, its kind of the whole point behind the "you should use MGs" threads.

Pater Mors, on 08 March 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

MWO is not TT.

TT rules were never going to translate to a real time game, just the same was WH40k rules don't translate to the Dawn of War or Space Marine games.

Not all TT rules are going to translate perfectly into MWO, however they are the baseline where you start and some transition from pen and paper to keyboard and mouse quite well. ECM is one of those as it has very specific counters to some very specific items that give some very specific bonuses. The biggest problems in the game usually stem from straying to far from TT rules.

Edited by Kartr, 09 March 2013 - 06:32 AM.