468 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 10 March 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

It wasnt pointless. Doubling armor was necessary because of pinpoint aiming.

But would you say that tripling the rate of fire of weapons was sensible? All while not having an actual heat scale with penalties and adding heat sinks to your heat capacity.

That change allowed people to front load a lot of damage.

Table Top: K2 with 2 PPCs firing over 10 seconds: 20 damage against 2 randomly determined hit location with normal armour.
MW:O: K2 with 2 PPCs firing over 10 seconds: 60 damage against against player-chosen, mouse aimed hit location with double armour. Sure, the MW:O K2 is now overheating and shutdown, but it still got to deal that 60 damage.

Now imagine you have 2 K2s.
40 damage in Battletech after 10 seconds against 4 randomly determined hit locations. Worst Case for defender. 40 damage to one location.
120 damage in MW:O against (2) player-chosen mouse aimed hit location. Worst Case for Defender: 120 damage against one location.

[Xandralkus]

Doubling armor just doubled the number of people on a team firing on a target. It did not extend target engagement time. The unfolding metagame has 'patched out' double armor, while removing the capability of solo PvPers and small group PvPers to go forth and actually damage targets in any statistically meaningful timeframe.

The intended positive effect failed miserably, and caused an apocalyptically horrible outcome. Double armor is bad, no matter how one measures it.

Target engagement time for a single mech firing on another of similar tonnage needs to be approximately 10-12 seconds. That's very slow and relaxed compared to most other shooters, but still fast enough to preserve the effect of "Oh, firing a weapon actually MATTERS to an enemy!"

Edited by Xandralkus, 10 March 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Pht]

dal10, on 08 March 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

(Armor: if armor was not doubled, DO YOU HAVE ANY BLOODY IDEA HOW FAST THINGS WOULD DIE?

They had exactly this problem, because they picked up the TT weapons damage and armor ratings numbers but they didn't pick up the combat mechanic that those numbers were designed to work in.

What's really sad and a bit ironic is said combat mechanic that wasn't picked up is the mechanic that describes how well a 'Mech can use the weapons mounted to it -

...It is the 'Mech (obviously) that actually points the weapons - and it's the 'Mech that does the calculations as to where to physically point the weapons...

In order to hit what the pilot is indicating/tracking with his reticule on his hud.

In other words, the game isn't simulating how your 'mech actually takes part in the combat.

A mech combat sim game, minus ... the "mech" part, as far as handling the weapons is concerned.

Jumbo shrimp?

Honest politician?

... true lie?

Xandralkus, on 10 March 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Target engagement time for a single mech firing on another of similar tonnage needs to be approximately 10-12 seconds.

Actually ... no.

We don't know the in-lore weapons reycle times; we do know that they can be and likely are faster than 10 seconds.

Edited by Pht, 10 March 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[blinkin]

Pht, on 10 March 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

We don't know the in-lore weapons reycle times; we do know that they can be and likely are faster than 10 seconds.

from what i understand it depends on what book you look at.

in some books autocannons fire single shots just like this game in other books they act more like WW2 fighter plane cannons, firing full auto with small explosive shells.

the OP is a whiny table top elitist (expletive). i think ideas should be drawn from table top, but dice based rules should not control everything. i do agree with one point he made. increasing rate of fire while reducing weapon damage and heat based (loosely) on the 10 second turn. missiles do complicate this a bit because they seem to be more clearly defined than other weapons and actually having a 10 second cooldown on any weapon would suck in a major way.

here is a sarna quote to illustrate my point:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon
An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts. It is, basically, a giant "machine gun" that fires predominantly cased explosive shells though models firing saboted high velocity kinetic energy penetrators or caseless ordnance do exist. Among the earliest tank/BattleMech scale weaponry produced, autocannons produce far less heat than energy weapons, but are considerably bulkier and are dependent upon limited stores of ammunition.
Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage vs armor.^[1] The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors. Autocannon are grouped into the following loose damage classes:

what i gather from this is that we should not have different AC ammo types just different firing rates.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

blinkin, on 10 March 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

The OP is a whiny table top elitist (expletive). i think ideas should be drawn from table top, but dice based rules should not control everything.

This is pretty much how I read it, too.

TT has randomly assigned hit and damage, but that really sucks for live action gameplay. Take Fallout 3. It's like a first person shooter, but you can have your weapon pointing directly at an enemy and miss because your skill isn't high enough. It doesn't feel right to first person shooter players, and it didn't feel right to old fallout players because you could attack outside of VATS.

So with Mechwarrior, they can pull from the lore and try and set things up as similar as possible, but if we were stuck in a first-person-shooter-turn-based-strategy, I think they'd have maybe 1% of their current population. Fact is, this game is really fun to play. I genuinely enjoy shooting at other mechs with all manner of weapons. Are some things out of balance? Definitely, but the devs have shown they're working on that. Hence why you actually see people with large pulse lasers now. Does everything follow TT rules? No, and it shouldn't, because it's a completely different type of game.

It's like every patch people forget all the good things that came with it and focus solely on what minor things are out of balance. Yeah, PPCs seem to be the new go-to weapon for everything. But at least actually useful now, and firing two of them won't overheat you.

[Psydotek]

CloaknDagger, on 08 March 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

...10. No heat scale effects.

Effect: With only "shutdown" and "perfectly fine", there's absolutely no reason not to alpha strike. In TT you would slow down, become less accurate, and maybe blow up with too much heat. NOPE! Not here!...

This is the worst offense for me.

There's no benefit for running cool and no punishment for running hot until you're over 100%.

[Deathlike]

I sincerely hope they add the basic/common overheat slows your mech down behavior... but that isn't truly necessary for balance.. just realism.

[MustrumRidcully]

Psydotek, on 10 March 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

This is the worst offense for me.

There's no benefit for running cool and no punishment for running hot until you're over 100%.

It's also the only reason why people can even play trial mechs or even regular mechs. If you actually had to avoid getting to a heat level of 10 or so to avoid serious penalties, the Gauss Kitty and the Gauss Cata would rule the game, because they are the only mechs that could hope to utilize their rate of fire and vastly out-DPS any other mech.

Either people would run with mechs only equipping 1 Medium Lasers per 5 Double Heat Sinks (no one would use anything bigger). Or they would go the other extreme and only build alpha strikes build that instantly overheat.

[Aim64C]

Xandralkus, on 10 March 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Doubling armor just doubled the number of people on a team firing on a target. It did not extend target engagement time. The unfolding metagame has 'patched out' double armor, while removing the capability of solo PvPers and small group PvPers to go forth and actually damage targets in any statistically meaningful timeframe.

I'd be curious to see the matches you play in.

Flanking maneuvers by small groups have saved a number of matches I've been in. I often flank in my kitty and start hammering into an Atlas or Stalker with LRMs from behind. That tends to disorient and break a line ... not to mention I can damn near core that Atlas in three or four salvos if he doesn't have ample AMS umbrellas or access to expedient cover.

Considering I can one-shot a commando with merely two LRM 15s slaved to an Artemis... (not sure why this guy was standing still... but if he was going to move, it never happened) - I don't think we need to revert to table-top values.

Further - a small pack of lights seems to have absolutely no trouble chewing up heavier mechs if they are worth their salt.

Quote

The intended positive effect failed miserably, and caused an apocalyptically horrible outcome. Double armor is bad, no matter how one measures it.

Because you can't mash the attack button with your targetting reticule in the proximity of a robot looking thing and kill things?

I would be willing to entertain the argument that the ability to place pinpoint fire on targets alters the table top premise of armor distribution, and thus some kind of compensation should be done (perhaps as a percentage reduction to damage) regarding areas like the center torso.

I'm not sure it would be the best way to take the game - but it's a more reasonable point than the one you're trying to make.

Quote

Target engagement time for a single mech firing on another of similar tonnage needs to be approximately 10-12 seconds. That's very slow and relaxed compared to most other shooters, but still fast enough to preserve the effect of "Oh, firing a weapon actually MATTERS to an enemy!"

*shrug* I've managed that with my backup weaponry, alone. Not sure what you're doing wrong.

Typically, though, my bouts of knife-fight dancing are not private affairs. When they are - the light usually wins. Sure - I can use my bank of medium pulse lasers to work him over pretty well - but it usually comes down to mildly lucky shots on my part if I 'win.'

I think heat could be tweaked a little better. I'm not exactly sure how - the desparity between what a PPC generates and what a medium laser generates seems to be quite shallow compared to the relative damages, recycle rates, etc.

[Roland]

I hope to encounter the OP in game.

[Mechteric]

Sometimes you gotta take off the neckbeard and then put some pants on.

[Cyke]

Maybe if your current heat % gave you movement speed and turning penalties, then they can put DHS back at 0.2/sec heat dissipation?

*runs*

[dal10]

Cyke, on 11 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Maybe if your current heat % gave you movement speed and turning penalties, then they can put DHS back at 0.2/sec heat dissipation?

*runs*

[xengk]

MechWarrior Tactics is thattaway

https://mwtactics.com/

Edited by xengk, 11 March 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Sturmforge]

Returning armor to its stock values then dividing weapon damage based on the TT 10 second turn would increase combat length. My math may be a bit off but it should be close to actual times.

Current AC-10 (2.5 second cooldown)
40 damage fired from 4 shots, 10 damage each shot, versus 40 armor, 7.5 seconds to deplete.

Current Large Laser (1 second beam, 3.25 second cooldown)
45 damage from 5 shots, 9 damage each shot, versus 40 armor, 17 seconds to deplete

My proposed system (Closer to TT values)

AC-10 (2.5 second cooldown)
20 damage fired from 8 shots, 2.5 damage each shot, 10 seconds versus 20 armor. 17.5 seconds to deplete.

Large Laser (1 second beam, 3.25 second cooldown)
21 damage from 7 shots, 3 damage each shot, versus 20 armor, 25.5 seconds to deplete

Missile examples

SRM-2
Fire 1 missile every 5 seconds for 2 damage each.

SRM-4
Fire 1 missile every 2.5 seconds 2 damage each

SRM-6
Fire 1 missile every 1.6 seconds 2 damage each

LRM-5
Fire 1 missile every 2 seconds 1 damage each

LRM-10
Fire 1 missile every 1 seconds 1 damage each

LRM-15
Fire 1 missile every 0.6 seconds 1 damage each

LRM-20
Fire 1 missile every 0.5 seconds 1 damage each

Of course this would need to be balanced with actual play time and testing.

Edited by Sturmforge, 11 March 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[Xandralkus]

Aim64C, on 11 March 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Because you can't mash the attack button with your targetting reticule in the proximity of a robot looking thing and kill things?

I would be willing to entertain the argument that the ability to place pinpoint fire on targets alters the table top premise of armor distribution, and thus some kind of compensation should be done (perhaps as a percentage reduction to damage) regarding areas like the center torso.

I'm not sure it would be the best way to take the game - but it's a more reasonable point than the one you're trying to make

Pinpoint firing is a completely different mechanic than armor. Trying to use one to balance the other is never going to work - not in any statistically significantly beneficial way. It's roughly analogous to comparing a TIE fighter to a time-travelling Delorian - they are that radically different.

Pinpoint firing may be a little stupid in its current iteration, but if players retain the ability to direct fire onto designated locations of targets with any measurable degree of certainty, then we simply have to accept that in order for a battle to be fair between 16 players (eight per team) it's going to be over in a couple minutes with no respawns and no repairs - and that's not a bad thing. That target engagement time is still going to be WAY longer than normal shooters.

Aim64C, on 11 March 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

*shrug* I've managed that with my backup weaponry, alone. Not sure what you're doing wrong.

Typically, though, my bouts of knife-fight dancing are not private affairs. When they are - the light usually wins. Sure - I can use my bank of medium pulse lasers to work him over pretty well - but it usually comes down to mildly lucky shots on my part if I 'win.'

I think heat could be tweaked a little better. I'm not exactly sure how - the desparity between what a PPC generates and what a medium laser generates seems to be quite shallow compared to the relative damages, recycle rates, etc.

Lights ignore all the rules with their lagshield. If not for the sake of testing the lagshield in order to help remove it, I would actually advocate removing light mechs until the devs CAN make the servers handle a 150+ KPH light, and have our weapon damage application match up with where we are aiming. The lagshield is the only reason why lights can solo anything competently.

Additionally, you might be interested in this post...I went into detail with weapon rebalancing, calculating such things as heat per second and damage per heat: http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry1477020

Edited by Xandralkus, 11 March 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Strig]

"Canon" stats would make for a HORRIBLE game!!

Cannon stats work in TT (barely, it is still quite easy to exploit that system). This is because you are rolling dice and there is zero skill involved. Zero. You have a statistically guaranteed chance to miss every shot. Every shot that hits hits somewhere randomly. This would not be fun or visceral in any way while in the cockpit of a giant robot.

You might be able to achieve this with a system like the FallOut VATS but this DOES NOT WORK in a real-time FPS-esque simulator where some level of skill is involved.

All of your points (addressed by others so I won't repeat them) are invalid except one: MGs suck. You got that right.

I love the TT game. I play a lot of different table-top games and they don't translate to real-time action games 1:1. I am a designer and they just DON'T. If you want a digital version of the TT game you should check out MWTactics.

[Xandralkus]

Strig, on 11 March 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

If you want a digital version of the TT game you should check out MWTactics.

The hardcore TT fanatics need to stay out of MWO and stop pretending like they can game design. Tabletop mechanics can correlate MUCH more fluidly into RTS than FPS.

Edited by Xandralkus, 11 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Sturmforge]

Was not saying I want TT stats. I was just saying that they did not need to double armor.

I am more concerned with the fluff and fiction out there. Yes use the TT more as a guideline. Do not stick to them.

Edited by Sturmforge, 11 March 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

But would you say that tripling the rate of fire of weapons was sensible? All while not having an actual heat scale with penalties and adding heat sinks to your heat capacity.

Yes tripling the rate of fire made sense. Because no one wants to play a live-action game with 10 second cooldowns. However what doesn't make sense is that they didn't divide damage or heat by 3.

Additionally they introduced pinpoint aiming but kept the armor values based on random hit locations. Again that makes no sense.

Those are the two major balance problems with weapons.