83 replies to this topic

[NRP]

I am starting to hate LRMs as much as I used to hate light mechs. They seem much more effective after the recent patch. The spread is tighter and the trajectory seems lower too. I was inside the culvert pipe on Forest Colony when a Treb fired LRMs at me from near the ship wreck. The g*damn things flew low enough to hit me even though I was fully inside the drainage pipe! I'm not usually one to complain, but that's just f'ing ridiculous. They flew like a long range SRM.

[Wintersdark]

AMS. Seriously. Sure, your one AMS is probably not going to amount to such (though it'll really matter vs. those mechs running just an LRM5 or LRM10 as a support weapon), but if you're not a braindead rambo, and hang out with teammates who also have AMS... Now it's 10, 15, 20 shot down. That's a very substantial difference.

AMS is a very valuable thing to bring for your whole team.

[Fieldmarshal]

As a support player, i let the LRMers have their target lock on me as i stay in cover, i pop put so they can relock, while they drool over a easy kill, they give up their position for my teams gauss/PPC equipped mechs, and while they are focused on me, their situational awareness also drops where we can maneuver our mechs to the flanks.

[Siliconwolf]

Bluten, on 09 March 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

He typed a big huge wall to list out what could have been a few sentences... and didn't even mention the value of the AMS. Well done!

I didn't mention AMS because I just wanted to list out the very basics of dealing with LRMs, no matter what kind of mech or equipment you have. I also didn't mean to imply that these things will protect you from them 100% of the time or that LRMs weren't a threat. Sometimes you have to move through areas where you're going to get hit by enemy fire. However, there's a big difference between being forced into a position where you have to take incoming fire and just standing around taking LRM showers, especially when there is some form of cover near by.

[Baltasar]

Couple of things: To the guy getting stuck on River City in the upper city portion..from starting out on that side of the map lower city is more tactically advantageous. You can approach their base under cover with minimal damage (Its why river city is the one of the worst maps for teams missing each other. Dropship side goes upper city because its just better and lower side goes lower city because it offers better protection.)

Secondly, on AMS, it's not meant to tank LRM boats. You are not meant to stand out in the open with your little AMS and laugh at missiles blowing up. AMS helps when you are moving from cover to cover. It takes out those first missiles that are incoming so you are taking less damage while your making your covered position, therefore, taking very little damage in the process (plus it can work on streaks too if there is enough distance).

Finally, if you are getting hit from LRMs from multiple angles, then you are facing experienced LRM players that understand the best way to use them. Yes you are going to take a lot of damage from them like you would from experienced players with any other weapon system. Plus those that are hitting you from the odd angles are probably the faster more mobile plate forms which are designed for that purpose (and not packing as much LRMs as the "cheese" LRM boat stalker).

[Taemien]

One thing that I will point out. Without a spotter, sitting out in the open long enough to be targeted and hit by a single salvo of LRMs is enough time for me to utterly destroy you with UAC5s or Large Lasers. The best defense against LRMs is to avoid the lock entirely. Just like you'd avoid direct fire weapons. Its basically the same concept.

And remember, if you have a spotter on you, you're being 2v1'd. Imagine if it were two splatcats or Jenners instead. In either case you can only reliably focus on one target at a time.

[Kaeb Odellas]

The reason we're seeing more LRM boats nowadays is because the new pattern turned standard LRMs into pre-patch Artemis LRMs, and Artemis LRMs into 1 km indirect-fire Streaks, and the addition of Alpine makes LRMs all the more powerful in the meta game. This combined with TAG and the targeting/sensor modules makes them stupidly powerful, especially when boated.

AMS requires everyone on the team to carry it to nullify even one LRM boat. What happens when your pubbies don't carry AMS, or matchmaking decided you didn't need any ECM that round? What happens when the game decides to throw Alpine or Caustic at you? Alt-F4?

What needs to happen is the spread needs to be wider again, or AMS should get buffed against tightly clustered swarms of the things. Or hell, let us shoot the damn things down with our own weapons.

[Baltasar]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 March 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

The reason we're seeing more LRM boats nowadays is because the new pattern turned standard LRMs into pre-patch Artemis LRMs, and Artemis LRMs into 1 km indirect-fire Streaks, and the addition of Alpine makes LRMs all the more powerful in the meta game. This combined with TAG and the targeting/sensor modules makes them stupidly powerful, especially when boated.

AMS requires everyone on the team to carry it to nullify even one LRM boat. What happens when your pubbies don't carry AMS, or matchmaking decided you didn't need any ECM that round? What happens when the game decides to throw Alpine or Caustic at you? Alt-F4?

What needs to happen is the spread needs to be wider again, or AMS should get buffed against tightly clustered swarms of the things. Or hell, let us shoot the damn things down with our own weapons.

This is nothing like pre-patch artemis LRMs. LRMs are not dropping down at a 90 degree angle, LRMs are not purely headshoting mechs in one salvo. We all have nightmares of that time (and I was just playing spotter) and LRM spam is not even near those lvls. Artemis is about right with all the counters we have currently, not to mention, to get the benefit you have to expose yourself to direct fire which is nasty. Missiles are slow moving and they prevent the stupid, run out into the middle with no cover, mentality. I remember when water on forest colony was feared and a poor choice to go because of the LRMs, well guess what it's still not the greatest because its a lot of open area. The middle of Forest colony is wide open. Step in that zone and you will get LRMs rained down on you.

[Revorn]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 March 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

Artemis LRMs into 1 km indirect-fire Streaks,

If someone is realy get hitted at this Distance, he is maybe felt asleep.

[Aim64C]

There are two general types of LRM players, and which one you are up against changes your options, considerably.

You have strategic LRMs and tactical LRMs. Strategic LRMs tend to rely on spotters and have very, very LRM heavy setups. Tactical LRMs tend to be more mobile and will one-on-one you.

Strategic LRMs:

Effective use of strategic LRMs involves spotters and relatively unobstructed flight paths for the missiles. They are often indirectly fired from slow platforms that do not cover a lot of ground quickly. The immediate solution is to get behind cover. Use your instincts - if it would stop a bullet, it will stop a missile (just be aware of the fact that missiles will travel in a ballistic arc - so they can come in over the top of some obstacles).

The value of strategic LRMs is in restricting your team's movement - not in the actual damage they put out. Disciplined strategic players have a pretty good idea of how to use their LRMs' intimidation factor and will be more difficult to trick into blowing their ammo into the side of a mountain.

If you find yourself dealing with a number of strategic LRMs - your only real options are to split off a flanking force to harass the strategic LRMs - or to fall back and hope the brawling line over-extends the coverage of their strategic LRMs. Remember - the goal of strategic LRMs is to do two things: Make you scared to move out from cover and to punish you, severely, for committing to an extended stay outside of cover.

As an additional measure before moving out from cover, have a tactical LRM user pop out and blast a salvo into a nest or have a spotter make a point to target an LRM boat long enough for you to fire a strategic salvo. If he can fire at you - your LRMs can hit him (usually). The point of this is not to actually hit anyone - it's to force them to choose between eating the volley, or breaking out of position and allowing a lapse of coverage. Dumb-fire into their carriers to break their focus before you push through the open.

Don't play their game. Deny them good firing angles and time to put damage on you. Draw their allies beyond their support, and/or split off a flanking force to deny the brawlers their support.

Tactical LRMs:

These are, often, your more seasoned players. Tactical use of LRMs requires much more mobile designs and the price of mods for them can be quite expensive (one of my catapult builds cost 9 million C-bills ... not including the purchase price of the base chassis) - so they have probably played a while in that chassis.

Tactical LRMs will often sweep wide in a flanking maneuver, particularly against clustered and pinned enemies. Their goal is to distract you from a push by the brawling line (as well as soften you up for them) or to break your group out from cover and into their team's fire.

Solo these builds at your own risk. LRMs pack a lot of damage potential, and it is not often difficult for a fast catapult to pull away and into effective LRM range. Then you are eating face-fulls of 50-72 points of damage with very little time for reaction. An Atlas can easily be cored by one of these builds. Unless you know you are fast enough to evade most LRMs fired at you, or are confident that you can remain within their minimum range - do not commit to chasing them.

Unlike strategic LRM builds, the tactical builds are likely to have a noteworthy backup arsenal for close range (my C4 has a bank of 4 medium pulse lasers that seems to catch a few pilots by surprise). While you may negate one of their most destructive weapons by closing the distance, you are not necessarily going to be clubbing a baby seal. If you can - take note of the 'mechs' loadout and your armor status before committing to a close-range engagement. You may be better off dodging LRMs, dashing from cover to cover - than dancing close range where precision fire from their backup arsenal can clip your torso.

The best overall strategy against tactical LRMs is focused direct fire. Occasionally, you'll catch one out in the open and can simply out-boat its LRM package with your team's help. More often - the pilot will break your lock or seek cover. Hit them when they expose themselves.

Alternatively, if you can split off enough fast mechs, a swarm of lights with a medium in support tends to put a quick end to a tactical LRM player. They often are willing to extend considerably beyond the protective fire of their team, and while a single light or medium will not often be enough to bring them down before they can get back to their team; a small team with the focused purpose of destroying a tactical LRM player will often do the trick. In this instance, his own cover against your team's LRMs can often prevent his own team from providing effective support from range.

The key thing to take away from tactical LRM builds is that they pack a hell of a wollop, are considerably fater and more maneuverable than the LRM platform would indicate, and that they are vulnerable to direct fire weapons. They also tend to push out from their team to gain better firing angles, which exposes them to swarm tactics.

Overall strategy against LRMs:

While this works for all classes - the best thing to keep in mind is that LRMs are very effective crowd control. They are simple weapon systems to avoid damage from, but when they are in a position to deal damage - they deal a lot of it. To counter these platforms, you must seize the initiative and start making your own efforts to control the battle. Put pressure on the LRM carriers, drive them back into cover, dumb-fire into their nests before making a break into the open, set an ambush for that tactical who thinks he's being clever.

Also... don't bunch up. Yes - you need to be moving as a team. That does not mean you need to be nut-to-butt with each other. Spreading out gives your team more angles of fire and affords the enemy less cover. Of course - you don't spread out so much that you cannot support each other or that you make yourself helpless if you encounter a sneaky pack of lights - but bunching up too much is just a bad overall idea.

Don't spread out too much - but give each other some wiggle room and make it so that your entire team's line of fire is not blocked by a single mech-sized rock.

[Glythe]

Training Instructor, on 08 March 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Taking out 3-5 of the sixty missiles heading towards you makes a huge difference........oh wait, it doesn't.

Yea it does.....

IF everyone on the team has AMS you can shoot down 24-40 missiles. If your mech's AMS range is close enough to the stream of missiles it will shoot them down. You don't have to shoot all of them down anyway.... just the ones at the front of the pack that would hit before you get into cover. I can't tell you how many times AMS has shot down just enough missiles to get me safely back into cover at the last second without taking damage.

However If you have a team of 8 mechs with double AMS you can shoot down just about any volley of missiles.

[Aim64C]

Glythe, on 10 March 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

Yea it does.....

IF everyone on the team has AMS you can shoot down 24-40 missiles. If your mech's AMS range is close enough to the stream of missiles it will shoot them down. You don't have to shoot all of them down anyway.... just the ones at the front of the pack that would hit before you get into cover. I can't tell you how many times AMS has shot down just enough missiles to get me safely back into cover at the last second without taking damage.

I notice the difference between LRM effectiveness on my C4 and my C1. I still run 15s on my C1, and I notice they get cut down much more effectively by AMS than my C4's 20s would.

There again... I've also had players who just do silly things.

I can't tell you how many times on Alpine or River City, I've had someone follow me out into the open. It doesn't matter what you're in (spare for, perhaps, a DDC with ECM) - if you go slower than 80 KPH, I'm going to eat you alive.

One conquest game I had got down to practically the rest of the enemy team, myself, and two ravens. I thought it was going to be a game of playing hide and seek, trying to keep my ravens from getting torn up in the support role. I'm moving from Gamma to Sigma on River City Night, trailing my raven pack, when I notice a Cataphract lumbering my direction from theta. I'm in a C4 with 2 LRM 20s, 2 medium lasers, and 8 tons of LRM ammo (I think I'd blown through about half of that, already).

He eats the first salvo of 40 missiles and just keeps coming at me like he doesn't give a damn. At this time, I notice there's another cataphract about 300 meters behind.

"Really? We're going to do this?"

I fire another salvo, running weird figures in the bay. It hits, and he's damn near cored.

"Alright... *laugh*"

Another salvo - 'kersploded cataphract.

I'm taking a bit of stray autocannon fire - but it's not really concerning me at all. I lock up his buddy, who hasn't made it any farther than where I started shooting at the first cataphract. By the second salvo, I notice there is -another- cataphract following in his footsteps. I laugh, and 'kersplode his buddy.

I'm expecting these guys to ... make some kind of effort to stop dying. Granted - they don't have the best of cover options where they are at... but I kind of wondered if they didn't know any better... had stopped caring... were overconfident... or what. Two salvos connected with the last cataphract before he came in under my minimum range. We started to dance a bit, and a large laser from one of my raven friends finished him off.

Then I turn to see an atlas DDC lumbering its way out of the buildings, making its way into the bay (I guess he thought ECM made him invincible or something). I wasn't able to break away and start teaching him a lesson before our team got the point victory.

I can only imagine what their team chat looked like (if they were typing anything, at all).

The thing is... there was absolutely no reason for me to be doing that kind of damage (that round I broke 1100). It would have been so easy to negate my firepower, regroup, and focus fire on me 15-30 seconds later. It's not like it was some big mystery where we were going (capture points)... or like we were numerous (could have out-capped).

But I can almost imagine that they have joined the "LRMs are overpowered!" crowd - like they are supposed to be able to eat four square meals of LRMs as a part of every match without it causing a problem.

Thankfully, as ELO has balanced things a little better, I've not run into too many of those situations, again. I'll still be able to draw an atlas out who thinks he found a soft target on occasion - but most of the players seem to have wisened up to the fact that LRMs are not at all part of a healthy diet.

Quote

However If you have a team of 8 mechs with double AMS you can shoot down just about any volley of missiles.

Realistically, you're not going to have a team full of DDCs (the only 'mech with dual AMS at this point). Still - a team with a good blanket of AMS can move through cover much more effectively.

[John Clavell]

While I feel there is certainly a case to review and tune per missile damage again. Fight in the shade.

[Vahnn]

Vlad Ward, on 08 March 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Ah, man, this made my day.

Excellent thread.

[Siliconwolf]

There certainly were a lot of helpful posts in it. Hopefully more people read it and learn to try to avoid taking LRM's to the face constantly and whining about it.

[Baltasar]

Great breakdown on LRM tactics Aim64C. +1 Needs to be a sticky in a tactics forum. Understand your enemy you can defeat your enemy. Well written and I hope people read it and take it to heart when dealing with LRMs.

[Kai Lae]

The thing I wonder about is what are the complainers going to do when clan weapons/mechs arrive. Clan LRM's have no minimum range and use a direct fire trajectory, so they work like streaks at close range.

[Trauglodyte]

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Funny thing is, I don't need ECM to avoid missiles. Next time I run my Stalker and get LRMs fired at me, I'll FRAPS it so I can show everyone how to dodge missiles at 45kph.

It isn't that I'm completely unaware of how to avoid missiles. It isn't hard but it inevitably puts you in a situation where you're spending more time then wanted behind cover and, therefor, not DPSing your targets. This goes to the point of LRM boats pinning down slower mechs for fear of getting obliterated when they land. AMS is handy for reducing the amount of missiles incoming but it isn't a counter. ECM, if you can carry it or have it on your team, is an effective momentary counter.

What I don't get is the whole mindset of LRMs. The heavy LRM users don't want their damage nerfed but they'd dance a freaking jig if the missiles were 2x as fast. And ECM users don't want their system nerfed but it only prevents missile locks because when you can land a major volley of LRMs, you can pretty much one shot damned near anything. So why not meet in the middile and make it so that LRMs are more usable (ie, no more of this 40% chance to land a volley junk) but less punishing when the perfect storm hits?



PS> Great post by AIM64C.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 10 March 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Revorn]

Trauglodyte, on 10 March 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

So why not.... less punishing when the perfect storm hits?

We had Missles at 1.7 Pre ECM and no one used AMS, because Missles did no real Dammge with 1.7, With ECM they got buffed to 1.8. Dropping dmg, of the Missles make them useless again.

Btw, AMS is more a couter to LRMs than a ECM, if you are in an slow Mech. Slow Mechs in the opren, tend to getiing TAGed fast.

[Acenan]

This footage pretty much sums up what happens when my atlas runs for cover.