69 replies to this topic

[KharnZor]

Rhent, on 08 March 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

More like an option to keep other mechs off my nuts. I don't know if I'm dancing at the Blue Oyster or playing a shooter.

Please note the 2 unassuming assaults entering the scene....never knew what hit them the poor buggers

[Kolonel Matt]

Lets get a couple things strait here. Some people seem to be confusing bot knockdowns and collisions. While they were taken out at the same time, they are not the same thing. Right now in game, we have a very weak version of collisions. I have had a Mech that I had critically damaged run into me, or an object, and have then been destroyed. The problem is, current collisions are not fully implemented. We can see it every time a lighter Mech runs into a heavier one and warps through it. It also causes very little damage right now. Realistically, what needs to happen is that the game needs to take a look at the mass of the colliding objects and their relative velocities and much more damage needs to be applied. Something that is 30 tons running at 100+ Kph and crashing into something would be devastating. This needs to happen as too many lighter Mechs with high speed literally bounce from object to object at full speed.

As for knockdowns, they will need to be much more balanced than they were before. While I haven't played while they were on, I have seen the videos of the abuse of the system. As someone stated above, a "cool off period" of something like 10 seconds could be applied between knockdowns. If you wanted to make it truly even, any collision large enough for a knockdown should knock both down. This would make both of them a target.

My preferred system is that for each Mech on Mech collision you would have 3 things determine knockdowns: Your relative speeds, your weight class, and their weight class. If the speed is high enough for a knockdown, then someone is going down. To determine which of the colliding Mechs goes down we look at the two Mechs weight class and apply the following rules:

1) Collisions of Mechs in the same wight class will result in both going down.
2) The effect of a Mech colliding with a heavier Mech class will cause the lighter class to be knocked down.
3) For the heavier weight class in a collision, the chance of knockdown 25% less for each class weight difference.

This makes it simple. Light on light, they both go down. Likewise, heavy on heavy, medium on medium, etc. A light hitting a medium would have a 100% chance of knocking itself down, and a 75% chance of taking the medium down. It would have a 50% chance of knocking down a heavy Mech and a 25% chance of downing an assault. Pure physics fun.

Basically, lighter or equal class wights always go down, and the heavier class has a greater chance to be down the closer it is in weight to the lighter class. And BOTH should receive a goodly amount of damage for the collision.

Thats my 2 cents.

[MjrPackage]

So many times I have wished for collisions (missed closed beta)

[Helbourne]

Do people even want to play Battletech / Mechwarrior? I mean come on now, this getting so stupid. People hate streaks, they hate collisions, they hate paying for repairing and rearming. They love the way ECM works (which is a bit too much for its size and weight). Balance this with that... balance, balance, balance. Zero sum games are not fun.

I say collisions cannot come back soon enough. Just becareful what you drive your mech into. I cannot wait to see people cry on the forums because some heavy pilot successfully pulled a Death From Above and crushed their mech.

Just seems there are a lot of things from the TT game people just hate outright. They do not even want the ideas of them in MWO. I say those people should go back to the other twichy bang bang game they came from.

Edited by Helbourne, 10 March 2013 - 09:56 AM.

[Sierra19]

FupDup, on 08 March 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

The double-edged sword of collisions is that it also actively encourages and rewards this exact kind of dumb behavior ALA Dragonbowling, Jennertackles, etc.

Even though a semi-truck IRL would win against an SUV any day of the week in a ramming contest, that doesn't mean the semi should actively do everything in its power to ram that other car unless it absolutely has to. Ramming should be a last resort, not an inconsequential bumper cars humpfest.

But in real life, the SUV isn't circling the semi truck shooting it with lasers and srms. In closed beta, tripping up lights was a very useful and valid tactic. It forced light players to use their heads, instead of the way it is now, exploiting the game engine, by a light mech running into a heavy or assault, then popping out the other side to get a nice back shot.

[Rhent]

Toxic Ogre, on 09 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Charging, in order to inflict damage on the opposing Mech, is an intended part of the game. It has been for 30 years in table top (TT)! There's even a big Mech in TT designed specifically for this. Guess what? It's an 80 ton Mech named the "Charger" and is a 5/8 mover (top speed 80kph). It's been awhile since I played table top, but I think at full speed it could do 70 points of damage if it made contact. The trouble was making contact with the enemy could be tough unless you had a really good pilot, and failing to connect meant you were often severely punished.

I'm not sure how effectively this would translate though, since making contact, or hugging somebody is sooooo easy in this game. Its hard not to miss.

I haven't been playing long enough to have seen the previous version of the charging rules in MWO, but am eagerly waiting. Just like everyone else, I'm scheming to build out my Mech that rams like a truck with a few JATO rockets strapped to it.

Charging has a point it knocks you down. Hugging is for people who can't aim and to abuse the system. In Multi Player Battletech I ran a Charger that did that.

Sierra19, on 09 March 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

But in real life, the SUV isn't circling the semi truck shooting it with lasers and srms. In closed beta, tripping up lights was a very useful and valid tactic. It forced light players to use their heads, instead of the way it is now, exploiting the game engine, by a light mech running into a heavy or assault, then popping out the other side to get a nice back shot.

All you have to do is put your back to the wall and most lights run away.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Wish my AC20 would do this to those pesky ravens:

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 09 March 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Padic, on 09 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Does no one remember how awful the rubberbanding post-collison was??

PGI didn't pull collisions because they were a bad gameplay mechanic. They pulled them because a bug associated with them made the game virtually unplayable. It was gross, and I see no reason to doubt that they will come back as soon as the collided mechs stay in one spot.

So far as Ive heard their build is two weeks more advanced than ours. The collision pull JUST HAPPENED to coincide two weeks after the goons posted that video.

so yeah the reason it was pulled seems pretty obvious

Helbourne, on 09 March 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Do people even want to play Battletech / Mechwarrior? I mean come on now, this getting so stupid. People hate streaks, they hate collisions, they hate paying for repairing and rearming. They love the way ECM works (which is a bit too much for its size and weight). Balance this with that... balance, balance, balance. Zero sum games are not fun.

I say collisions cannot come back soon enough. Just becareful want you drive your mech into. I cannot wait to see people cry on the forums because some heavy pilot successfully pulled a Death From Above and crushed their mech.

Just seems there are a lot of things from the TT game people just hate outright. They do not even want the ideas of them in MWO. I say those people should go back to the other twichy bang bang game they came from.

No, they want to play CoD in stompy mechs

[Padic]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 09 March 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

So far as Ive heard their build is two weeks more advanced than ours. The collision pull JUST HAPPENED to coincide two weeks after the goons posted that video.

so yeah the reason it was pulled seems pretty obvious

What video?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 March 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Why theres no collisions:

http://youtu.be/4K2QF70H2hc

Because paul got embarrased in his own game by Goons

that video

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

it will be interesting as hell to see how they fix it to put collisions back in that arent exploitable (I dont see it as possible)

[Rhent]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

it will be interesting as hell to see how they fix it to put collisions back in that arent exploitable (I dont see it as possible)

After watching that Paul video, that is something that no game developer wants in game, basically a way to troll another player. That being said, if there was damage being generated to both parties, it might fix it. But for now, it doesn't exist. Just run a brawler build and you can fix huggers.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Rhent, on 10 March 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

After watching that Paul video, that is something that no game developer wants in game, basically a way to troll another player. That being said, if there was damage being generated to both parties, it might fix it. But for now, it doesn't exist. Just run a brawler build and you can fix huggers.

the one positive thing I can say Goons do in a beta like this is point out flaws in the game to the devs in a way the devs CANT ignore.

[Menthro Kerensky]

As long as it looks at physics properly. Now if I am doing the math properly, which I probably am not, a 35 tons jenner has a mass of 35,000 kg. Traveling at 140 kph and striking an atlas its speed becomes 0 kph in 1 second, in reality it would probably end up with a negative speed but meh simplicity is king atm. So, the acceleration of said jenner is 38.88 m/s squared. So the jenner would exact a force of 1,361,080 newtons so 138791.53 kg of force so roughly 138 tons from a jenner. Now if said jenner jumpjets at the right angle to strike the top 1/3 or 1/4 of an atlas who is standing should have a rather high chance of flat backing the atlas, of course the jenner should also go flying but /shrug.

Edited by Menthro, 10 March 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[LordBraxton]

I dont even see the 'flaw' in the goon video....

Its always been easy to toy with the last enemy if your team has already taken his arms off and left him with one leg, so what if he kept falling over?

they just need to make charge attacks do high damage to BOTH mechs like it does in the TT (oh noes not battletech) along with knocking the lighter mech down (or both if they are close)

[kilgor]

Yeah, it shouldn't be possible for any mech to bowl through other mechs as they don't have the manual dexterity to avoid falling themselves.

[Helbourne]

In the TT game you make a piloting check to see if you fall down during a charging attack. Yes it damages both mechs. Yes damage it determined by weight. So a 80 ton mech making a charging attack on a 40 ton mech, well the 40 ton mech could very well get crushed like a tin can.

Now some of you may want to try to apply real physics but that is not how its done in Battletech. Most things are just simplified (ranges for weapons as an example). Bigger you are the more damage you dish out. A Jenner doing a Death From Above to an Atlas would most likely end up a mess for the Jenner.

[Escef]

Don't want to be hugged in combat? Easy, don't boat LRMs and non-ER PPCs. I have no qualms getting right up into the cockpit glass of stock Catapults, because they are all a hell of a lot less dangerous that way. If getting close means that our mechs are nose-to-nose, well, no problem to me. Just means you have to get that much farther away before you become a real threat again.

[Rhent]

Escef, on 10 March 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Don't want to be hugged in combat? Easy, don't boat LRMs and non-ER PPCs. I have no qualms getting right up into the cockpit glass of stock Catapults, because they are all a hell of a lot less dangerous that way. If getting close means that our mechs are nose-to-nose, well, no problem to me. Just means you have to get that much farther away before you become a real threat again.

With collisions, hugging in many cases is not viable for lighter mechs (see SRM Cat death grip) when it tries that move on an Atlas. Realistically, anyone trying to curb stomp an Atlas is going to bounce off the Atlas OR fall down. I don't play Atlases and don't really care for them. However, if they give Atlases the ability to plow medium/lights, it could be enough to make that chassis palatable in comparison to Awesomes/Stalkers.

A lot of caution in the game just isn't there now and with the collision system in place, it forced you to go slower to avoid obstacles. The guys poptarting, would have to be a lot more careful to save enough fuel to land and not crash. The number of DFA's I performed today would actually do damage.

Collisions bring in a lot more to the game and frankly are needed. Hugging is just so bad, its not a tactic, its just bad. Put in some damage and some knock downs and get rid of it. If two mechs of the same weight class want to hug themselves to death let them. Otherwise, a Cat hugging an Atlas, the Cat should fall on his ***.

[Escef]

I don't mind the idea of collisions and knockdown coming back. I wasn't around when knock down was a thing, but I have to say that I don't miss getting trampled on by team mates at the start of a match.

I absolutely think DFA should be a thing, and charging. And punching and kicking. And hatchets.

But in the meantime, if you are boating guns with a minimum range, you should not be too surprised if I get in your face.