187 replies to this topic

[Budor]

Budor, on 06 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

I have been worried about this before but Garth saved the world (again) and halted netcode developement back than. Now that he seems to be in vacation the evil developers are making progress so who or what will stop them this time?


- We got better netcode and im sure they will improve upon this even more.
- HSR lets us hit stuff we didnt earlier and its not even in for ballistics yet.
- The FPS are getting better.
- Modules are being introduced that add additional sources of damage.
- People are getting better at the game and thus kill robits faster.

The damage in this game is getting progressively higher as developement goes on. While this is not a bad thing per se i certainly wouldnt like the ttk to become even shorter. It somehow doesnt fit a battletech/mechwarrior game to me. The fights should have some sense of "weight" and "attrition" to them and a higher ttk helps with this.


My question is: How will the devs achieve this? Do they even want to or is a lower ttk the desired goal?

- They could up heat generation (not seeing this when i read about flushing or troll the bazillion "we need true dubs!" threads)
- They could lower every weapons dmg/dps (it takes a lot of work and testing to alter even 1 so how would the manage to do a complete pass)
- They could up armor (im not good at math or even theorycrafting complex game-mechanics but it seems this would cause similar problems to the weapon balance changes)


TLDR:

What will the devs do to not lower the TTK even more. Will they do anything? Is anyone but me worried that we will be (or are) past the sweet spot on how long a robit brawl should last?

Just quoted myself, noone cared abput the topic i made about it a few days ago

[Taemien]

Increasing armor anymore then it is now requires weapons to be rebalanced. You'll need to increase ammo per ton for one. And heat will need to be adjusted to account for continuous fire. Cluster weapons such as LRMs and LB-X ACs will need their damages increased dramatically as well. Making their balancing very hard (1.9 damage LRMs were severely OP while 1.7 was underpowered)

In addition speed becomes a serious thing. A Jenner with nearly 400 armor going 150kph will take much longer to take down.

[Adridos]

"Those who don't know the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

Have you ever seen MW4? Yes? And have you seen a viable light in that game? Yes? Then you had a phenomenom called daydreaming, since lights were completely and utterly useless. So were mediums and even some heavies.
That alone is a really damn good reason not to do it again.


But, as far as I've seen your behavior so far in this thread, you'd jump all over me to go back to CoD (which I've never played in the first place, as a matter of fact) and try to invalidate my opinion by ad hominem attacks.


So I'd like to go a bit ddeper and you better listen very closely.
"What is the problem with quadrapelled armor?" you may ask, "Everyone gets the same deal, after all, and fights will just get less twicthy!" Well, my coleague, the problem is the exponentiation. I could throw in all the theory on the subject you've probably failed in school, but I'll keep it simple and practical. Here is an example: A standard 35 tonner like, say, a Jenner can fill it's CT torso with 22 armor. Now, when you multiply it by 2, you get our current value of 44 per CT and when we multiply it again as per your sugestion, we get to 88 CT armor total. Not too shabby, it's a 44 damage points more to whitstand. And now let's take an Atlas. He has 62 armor as per the lore, in this game, he has 124 armor and after your multiplication is done, he gets 124 armor more. See it already? Jenner/Raven gained 44 more points of armor to whitsand in a fight, but an assault got a whooping 124 increase... that's 80 armor points more in what was meant as a fair deal for everyone to make the fights last longer. What you achieved, instead, was make anything under 100 tons a bit weaker, ultimately dooming anything 40 tons and less.

Do you see why "just multiplying it" is a really stupid idea?


And, as you might imagine, this also creates a plethora of otehr problems as well. For one, with increased number of shots required to down a part of a mech, the ammo-based weapons start loosing out on energy weapons and quite heavily, I might add. And lower-damage weapons become even more obsolete than they are now. I mean, common, something like a SL is completely useless when you need to fire at the same spot 83 times, and with the problem of boating those things due to the lack of hardpoints, you've just created a useless weapon. And upping it's damage really beats the purpose of more armor, since if you simply add 2x damage, we will be at the start again.

Edited by Adridos, 09 March 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[Yokaiko]

no
no
no
no
no

Oh and its a bad idea.

[Stimraug]

Broceratops, on 09 March 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

There is some merit to this. Brawls between organized teams are decided in 15 seconds. It's okay i guess, but I'm not sure it's what the devs were going for.

Even though I know what you mean Brolociraptor, it makes me think if doubling the armor would change any of this. Wouldn't the situation go from "Oh they took one of our mechs down already, we're in a disadvantage" to "They damaged one of our mechs a lot already, we're in a disadvantage."?

[KingCobra]

The OP is right +10. The mechs are like paper dolls and need to double the armor double the ammo and it will double the fun.The problem is massive alpha fire by more than one mech.A good team or good group of pugs can kill a enemy mech in a few seconds most games last less than 5 minutes.I remember older MW4 games lasting a average of 10-20 minutes it took skill to win not just running in like a herd of elephants and dieing in a few seconds.Lack of true armor back and head are the worst to much weapon and team covergance and some weapons overpowered make MWO seam like a FPS not a true simulation game. P.S thats why i would like a stock mode exleast i know everyone else might get to play longer than 3-5 minutes.

Edited by KingCobra, 09 March 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Grisnir]

MadSavage, on 09 March 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Jump snipers would have half their current armor as well, so they wouldn't be any more effective than they are now. Jumping would be a huge risk due to the fact that they can die in one volley.

you mean snipers like the Gausskitty, the 6 PPC Stalker and 4x20LRM Stalker?

[Stimraug]

Adridos, on 09 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

"Those who don't know the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

...Text...

Excellent post.

[Livewyr]

MadSavage, on 09 March 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Jump snipers would have half their current armor as well, so they wouldn't be any more effective than they are now. Jumping would be a huge risk due to the fact that they can die in one volley.

You do realize.. Jumpsnipers use the armor of what's in front of them (infinite) rather than their own armor, right?

So that 40pt Alpha from 4 PPCs would just start offing people left and right.

[Budor]

Double armor isnt the solution imo but i still think that the ttk will be to short if they further improve on netcode/hitreg and add additional sources of damage (consumables).

Edited by Budor, 09 March 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[MadSavage]

Grisnir, on 09 March 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

you mean snipers like the Gausskitty, the 6 PPC Stalker and 4x20LRM Stalker?

None of those are jump snipers. They would be out-brawled by any competent mech not featuring long range weapons.

[Broceratops]

Stimraug, on 09 March 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Even though I know what you mean Brolociraptor, it makes me think if doubling the armor would change any of this. Wouldn't the situation go from "Oh they took one of our mechs down already, we're in a disadvantage" to "They damaged one of our mechs a lot already, we're in a disadvantage."?

Certainly I think the proposed change is too hairy since it throws balance totally out of whack. But I do understand the spirit of the topic .... if they could make engagements a bit longer so you have to land more than 3 alphas before you destroy/disable a mech, I think the game might be funner.

As far as your point goes, the longer it takes to kill something, the more 'stuff' can happen that can affect the result. Like missing, or retreating and reengaging, things like that. It would be more about consistently being able to get good shots off and good piloting, rather than having do do this over a period of 15 seconds only. I don't think it would be more challenging but it would be less hectic and possibly more cerebral.

I don't mind the pace now but it's faster than what I'd expect out based on the IP. Here is a passage from an old BT novel.

Quote

Traditional military tactical thought holds that the best way to fight a 'Mech is to send in another 'Mech, preferably one bigger, stronger, and more heavily armored. When matched, the monster machines can pound away at one another for hours, each waiting for that one fatal mistake by his opponent. Each waiting for that inevitable, critical failure of nerve or machine, that instant's lapse in guard or tactics that will leave the way open for a fatal strike.

'Hours' is probably overdoing it though

Edited by Broceratops, 09 March 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[MadSavage]

Livewyr, on 09 March 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

You do realize.. Jumpsnipers use the armor of what's in front of them (infinite) rather than their own armor, right?

So that 40pt Alpha from 4 PPCs would just start offing people left and right.

No, it really wouldn't. The cataphract or catapult in question would jump once and get shot by the enemy team. Its ~35 CT armor wouldn't last long especially in a realistic engagement against competent medium/heavy builds.

[Assiah]

No, the current armor levels are fine. Try not charging in blindly and if you have the speed learn when to disengage.

If you want longer games wait until more large maps get rotated in and we go to 12v12.

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Increasing armor anymore then it is now requires weapons to be rebalanced. You'll need to increase ammo per ton for one. And heat will need to be adjusted to account for continuous fire. Cluster weapons such as LRMs and LB-X ACs will need their damages increased dramatically as well. Making their balancing very hard (1.9 damage LRMs were severely OP while 1.7 was underpowered)

In addition speed becomes a serious thing. A Jenner with nearly 400 armor going 150kph will take much longer to take down.

while I agree with most of your post, I would disagree with the LRM damage, they were fine around 1.4 - 1.6, the fact that current pathing allows them to all hit the majority of the time and likely hit the same section is ludicrous. A weapon (LRM 10) that weighs almost 2/3rds less than an AC/20, has more range and less heat should not nearly do the same amount of damage. But I digress from the topic at hand, apologies.

[Budor]

Assiah, on 09 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

If you want longer games wait until more large maps get rotated in and we go to 12v12.

More running around / larger maps isnt really what op is about (not talking 2x armor either). 12x focus fire wont make you last longer than 8x to.

[Zyllos]

I have been saying this since closed beta and will continue to say this...weapon convergence.

This is 100% why everything "feels" weak (except the Raven). Everyone can place weapon fire all onto a single point of their choosing. The Raven gets an exception because it is almost impossible to place all your fire onto a single point on the mech, so all that weapon fire is being spread across the Left, Center, and Right Torso, so that it now feels like an 80t mech instead of a 35t mech.

Edited by Zyllos, 09 March 2013 - 08:02 AM.

[Assiah]

Budor, on 09 March 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

More running around / larger maps isnt really what op is about (not talking 2x armor either). 12x focus fire wont make you last longer than 8x to.

I understand the more running around bit, but on the large maps you almost are forced to split up into lances to grab points and perform seek and destroy, thus negating the 12x focus fire argument. And honestly focus fire will always lead to quick kills, regardless of how much armor you have, the trick is to know where to engage the enemy and also to know when you need to fall back and try at another angle.

I have been in several matches where the game turned into a war of attrition, it has nothing to do with armor and everything to do with tactics and movement.

[KingCobra]

Budor, on 09 March 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

More running around / larger maps isnt really what op is about (not talking 2x armor either). 12x focus fire wont make you last longer than 8x to.

No but going into matches over and over again and 30 seconds later a light back shoots you and kills you in 1-2 shots is not very fun or even if your skilled being killed in 1-2 minutes becouse the focas fire of alphas is so intense your mech cannot stand the firepower YA that is so fun derp.Or the fact the mechs move right to left so slow you cant play defense very well to avoid all the incomming fire as you try to get to sparse cover?shall i go on?

[Grisnir]

MadSavage, on 09 March 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

None of those are jump snipers. They would be out-brawled by any competent mech not featuring long range weapons.

well he doesn't' talk about jump snipers but standard sniper like the mentioned Mechs

btw 6 PPC Stalker would one shot everything under 75 ton and the Gausskitty is even with double armor a real threat in brawls oh and we better don't about what happen, when you get hit by 80 LRM missiles

[TexAce]

Assiah, on 09 March 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

I have been in several matches where the game turned into a war of attrition, it has nothing to do with armor and everything to do with tactics and movement.

I have been, too. And they were the most fun I ever had in this game.

Sadly, out of my 1514 games I played, only THREE were like this and with all the "improvements" and add-ons we will get, it won't help!
One minute into the game it will already rain artillery and air-strikes. I really can't see anything coming, that will make the game LESS twitchy.

Edited by TexAss, 09 March 2013 - 08:06 AM.