187 replies to this topic

[Jetfire]

How about we just revisit weapons tuning in a month or so after state rewind is properly implemented for all weapon types?

[MadSavage]

Jetfire, on 09 March 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

How about we just revisit weapons tuning in a month or so after state rewind is properly implemented for all weapon types?

Weapons are already very balanced and they all seem to hit where aimed.

[Taemien]

Adridos, on 09 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

"Those who don't know the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

Have you ever seen MW4? Yes? And have you seen a viable light in that game? Yes? Then you had a phenomenom called daydreaming, since lights were completely and utterly useless. So were mediums and even some heavies.
That alone is a really damn good reason not to do it again.

I'm going to disagree here. In MW4 our unit had a few lances that specialized in lights and mediums, specifically our FOX subunit that migrated from using BattleArmor in MW3: Pirates Moon. They had a higher learning curve, but they were still viable and very effective in the Attrition gamemode that gave bonus points for a tonnage variation (A raven that got 3 kills on a Thor but died 7 times still won).

Quote

But, as far as I've seen your behavior so far in this thread, you'd jump all over me to go back to CoD (which I've never played in the first place, as a matter of fact) and try to invalidate my opinion by ad hominem attacks.


So I'd like to go a bit ddeper and you better listen very closely.
"What is the problem with quadrapelled armor?" you may ask, "Everyone gets the same deal, after all, and fights will just get less twicthy!" Well, my coleague, the problem is the exponentiation. I could throw in all the theory on the subject you've probably failed in school, but I'll keep it simple and practical. Here is an example: A standard 35 tonner like, say, a Jenner can fill it's CT torso with 22 armor. Now, when you multiply it by 2, you get our current value of 44 per CT and when we multiply it again as per your sugestion, we get to 88 CT armor total. Not too shabby, it's a 44 damage points more to whitstand. And now let's take an Atlas. He has 62 armor as per the lore, in this game, he has 124 armor and after your multiplication is done, he gets 124 armor more. See it already? Jenner/Raven gained 44 more points of armor to whitsand in a fight, but an assault got a whooping 124 increase... that's 80 armor points more in what was meant as a fair deal for everyone to make the fights last longer. What you achieved, instead, was make anything under 100 tons a bit weaker, ultimately dooming anything 40 tons and less.

Do you see why "just multiplying it" is a really stupid idea?


And, as you might imagine, this also creates a plethora of otehr problems as well. For one, with increased number of shots required to down a part of a mech, the ammo-based weapons start loosing out on energy weapons and quite heavily, I might add. And lower-damage weapons become even more obsolete than they are now. I mean, common, something like a SL is completely useless when you need to fire at the same spot 83 times, and with the problem of boating those things due to the lack of hardpoints, you've just created a useless weapon. And upping it's damage really beats the purpose of more armor, since if you simply add 2x damage, we will be at the start again.

This is a good point. Doubling armor increases survivability from lights to mediums to heavies, to assaults at a parabolic rate instead of a linear one. Doubling once as we have it now seems to be at that sweet spot of effectiveness from a turn based random hit chance to real-time sim. Well at least from what I can tell, Lights are viable and so are Assaults still.

And your point about smaller caliber weapons is spot on. When you have 248 pts of armor to get through on an Atlas, those small lasers just won't cut it. In fact they already are borderline useless.


Nothing will help against focus fire. In fact upping the armor will only encourage it further. Future game modes can do very well to help split up lances, perhaps even have asymmetrical starting points where you don't start with you're entire team. Like there is 4 bases, two to a side and a team has 4 on one and 4 on the other (assuming 8v8).

[Terror Teddy]

Great, so you want MG's to be even MORE worthless (if possible)

[KingCobra]

Jetfire, on 09 March 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

How about we just revisit weapons tuning in a month or so after state rewind is properly implemented for all weapon types?

Why dont we all just come back in say 6 months to a year and see if they can make a real mechwarrior simulation by then if not just keep playing MechButter Online.

[FupDup]

Adridos, on 09 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

"Those who don't know the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

Have you ever seen MW4? Yes? And have you seen a viable light in that game? Yes? Then you had a phenomenom called daydreaming, since lights were completely and utterly useless. So were mediums and even some heavies.
That alone is a really damn good reason not to do it again.

-Information-

Somebody on this forum who doesn't want to repeat MW4's interpretation of light mechs? My faith in humanity has been slightly restored.

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[KingCobra]

FupDup, on 09 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Somebody on this forum who doesn't want to repeat MW4's interpretation of light mechs? My faith in humanity has been slightly restored.

Have you ever seen MW4? Yes? And have you seen a viable light in that game? Yes? Then you had a phenomenom called daydreaming, since lights were completely and utterly useless. So were mediums and even some heavies.
That alone is a really damn good reason not to do it again.

This is a dammmmm lie you must never have played MW4 in MWL or NBT or MWA? where lights and mediums were the staple of game play a light was actully a scout.And mediums would roam along the sidelines of battles picking off injured heavys and assaults like they should.You sir have never played past mechwarrior games and if you did it must have been solo at home.MWO is a farse compared to the old PC mechwarrior games and leagues so go learn about true mechwarrior games. Untill MWO grows up and equils those titles its a shallow FPS not a true mechwarrior simulation.

Edited by KingCobra, 09 March 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[FupDup]

KingCobra, on 09 March 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

This is a dammmmm lie you must never have played MW4 in MWL or NBT or MWA? where lights and mediums were the staple of game play a light was actully a scout.And mediums would roam along the sidelines of battles picking off injured heavys and assaults like there should.You sir have never played past mechwarrior games and if you did it must have been solo at home.MWO is a farse compared to the old PC mechwarrior games and leagues so go learn about true mechwarrior games. untill MWO grows up and equils those titles it a shallow FPS not a true mechwarrior simulation.

Not everyone plays in leagues, ya know. In most normal matches, MW4 was saturated with Black Knights and Glatiators everywhere totting Jump Jets, CERPPC, and CGauss. Note that in MW4 I was often one of those rebels that would grab a quad-Rocket Launcher Commando (MekTek's MP3 mod) and bite ankles of those aforementioned poptarters. A dual-Heavy Rocket Launcher Owens using linked-fire was pretty fun too on servers that didn't ban those weapons.

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

no..armour is fine now. if we double armour again itll just turn into focus fire warrior online again as 1v1 battles will take too long.

[Demoned]

double armor good idea i like it,
will take you even longer to leg my jenner

[KingCobra]

FupDup, on 09 March 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Not everyone plays in leagues, ya know. In most normal matches, MW4 was saturated with Black Knights and Glatiators everywhere totting Jump Jets, CERPPC, and CGauss. Note that in MW4 I was often one of those rebels that would grab a quad-Rocket Launcher Commando (MekTek's MP3 mod) and bite ankles of those aforementioned poptarters.

You must have been on the MEKTEK servers or at the end of MW4 Mektek for all there efforts finnaly went with the same logic PGI is using make it dumbed down and make the mechs like butter compared to the overpower weapons and the game died.What you say is not the golden days of mechwarrior but the end result of a failed logic by mektek=NHUA matches and if PGI follows this path god help us all who love the mechwarrior IP.

Edited by KingCobra, 09 March 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[Aethon]

Levon K, on 09 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Right now there's only one thing to do: blow each other up. If we had more things to do, like real objectives, you would find that the game wouldn't be as twitchy.

New mode: BEER RUN

Each team starts at the same place, but where the Theta capzone used to be, there is now a 7-11. Each team must rush to the 7-11, and one of them must dismount their mech, run inside, grab a case of Buttweiper, then carry it back up the ladder into their cockpit (assuming their mech has been successfully defended by their teammates). If their mech has been destroyed, they must relay it to one of their teammates, who will attempt to get it back to their base before the opposing team can complete their own beer run.

Additionally, there is a frat house sitting on each base; this structure must be defended, as its destruction will award the victory to the opposing team. It is also the structure to which the case must be delivered, which also requires a dismount on return to base.

Minor C-Bill rewards will be granted on acquisition of the case, win or lose, as well as successful destruction of the enemy frathouse. Destruction of the 7-11 will reward no C-Bills or xp, but can done to prevent the opposing team acquiring their case after your pilot has acquired theirs...but will result in an immediate draw if your beer carrier is destroyed.

Last but not least, artillery and air strikes have been replaced by egg strikes, and serve only to demoralize the enemy.

[Applecrow]

I'd support a 10% increase in the armor cap with the requirement that added armor costs weight. It would make FF more useful, without allowing lights to gain rediculous surviveabilty compared to heavier mechs. Assaults would get the greatest gains where they need it most without giving lights the same armor as a TT Heavy.

I WOULD ALSO point out, I'm fine with where armor is at the moment. It's the hitboxes/netcode that need to be optimized.

[WarGruf]

I believe the reason fights are not taking long is because the mechs DO have too much armour... People are not thinking Tactically, they just wade in thinking they're indestructable and get blasted to pieces which is fine for a standard shooter but not in this game imo...

The amount of firepower is ok per mech, per ton. I think the game needs to change the way people think about their mechs. Lights are just that light and vunrable, mediums are mainly support roles, heavies, are the front line soldiers, assault are the firepower.

People need to start to learn their mech is not a god, its a machine that Will break if shot. We need to make this game more realistic so that we can get the classes working in the correct roles again.

That's why i think this game has started to become a bit frustrating for some people...

[Deamhan]

Nonsense, on 09 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Increasing armor just makes longer range weapons useless due to extra heat generation. Since it reduces the punishment for carrying short-range weapons only, you're asking for the combat to all degenerate into short range brawls.

The recent buffs to long range weapons (ppc heat and projectile speed, large laser heat, artemis grouping, etc) have gone a long way to reducing brawls and making the game more tactical. Adding more armor would be an indirect buff to medium lasers, streaks, and normal SRMs...as if we need to see more of that in the game....?

Terrible idea.

Since most long range weapons (ERPPC and Gauss) have no minimum range and are just as deadly, if not more so, up close as they are far away, then this idea is even better with what you are saying.

What do we see in 8 mans? At least 2 ECM lights and at least 2 DDC. What does the rest consist of? Poptarts (ERPPC w/ Gauss), Gauss cats, ERPPC Stalkers, etc.

What do you think is gonna happen with clan tech? Clan LRMs for no minimum range. Clan PPCs. Is there Clan Gauss?

They have no minimum
They have a long effective range
They do the same damage from 0m up to max effective range
They are point projectiles delivering their full damage to a single component
It's easier to hit someone up close making them even deadlier up close than far away

This game favors the heavy hitting long range weapons so anything that will help turn the table around is a good idea.

[jakucha]

Noooo, mechs sometimes feel too armory as it is, unless you have to use an unbalanced build like SRM spam.

Edited by jakucha, 09 March 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Orthodontist]

It's actually kind of interesting, I was pondering how much shorter the games have gotten the last few weeks.

My most enjoyable moment of this game was right after ECM was implemented. When it was "brawler online."

Shortly then after we saw the ECM light domination, then the LRM domination, then PPC online, and now...

Its everything. Everything is somewhat viable atm, but the ELO > Weight drops have...tweaked the games to these rather short, heated battles that last...seconds anymore.

Even PuGs seem to focus fire more often these days, being a good thing right?

Anyways,

More armor would be an interesting way of tweaking things.

[River Walker]

Will looks like the Bad Light pilots are starting to find out that they Suck.
No more running at a heavy No more running around a target and getting saved by Lagshield.
Most drops I am in last up to 6 to 8 minutes and I am far from being Leet in a Mech . I don't see this BS of hole sale sluttier happening out their.
I think its a case of OP is a light Mech driver and need to spend time on the training grounds or move up to a Heavy.

[Khobai]

Agreed armor needs to be increased. Althought I would triple it first... before quadrupling it.

[Wintersdark]

Adridos, on 09 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

"Those who don't know the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

"What is the problem with quadrapelled armor?" you may ask, "Everyone gets the same deal, after all, and fights will just get less twicthy!" Well, my coleague, the problem is the exponentiation. I could throw in all the theory on the subject you've probably failed in school, but I'll keep it simple and practical. Here is an example: A standard 35 tonner like, say, a Jenner can fill it's CT torso with 22 armor. Now, when you multiply it by 2, you get our current value of 44 per CT and when we multiply it again as per your sugestion, we get to 88 CT armor total. Not too shabby, it's a 44 damage points more to whitstand. And now let's take an Atlas. He has 62 armor as per the lore, in this game, he has 124 armor and after your multiplication is done, he gets 124 armor more. See it already? Jenner/Raven gained 44 more points of armor to whitsand in a fight, but an assault got a whooping 124 increase... that's 80 armor points more in what was meant as a fair deal for everyone to make the fights last longer. What you achieved, instead, was make anything under 100 tons a bit weaker, ultimately dooming anything 40 tons and less.

Do you see why "just multiplying it" is a really stupid idea?


And, as you might imagine, this also creates a plethora of otehr problems as well. For one, with increased number of shots required to down a part of a mech, the ammo-based weapons start loosing out on energy weapons and quite heavily, I might add. And lower-damage weapons become even more obsolete than they are now. I mean, common, something like a SL is completely useless when you need to fire at the same spot 83 times, and with the problem of boating those things due to the lack of hardpoints, you've just created a useless weapon. And upping it's damage really beats the purpose of more armor, since if you simply add 2x damage, we will be at the start again.

Quoted, as they say, for truth.


Battletech fights were indeed resolved in a very short time frame. A single AC/20 burst could ravage nearly any mech. But, that said, I'm not terribly interested in canon accuracy.

I do understand why armor was increased in the first place - battles were very short. Even the first doubling, however, it caused substantial issues with heat generation and weapon balancing.

Even now, autocannons are a shadow of their proper effectiveness, and ammunition limits are pretty punishing. Stock loadout mechs are virtually useless, as they overheat practically instantly and do no damage of note. DHS isn't a cool option, it's outright mandatory.

If they doubled armor again, it would make these problems - as the quoted poster above noted - exponentially worse.