68 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Increase ONLY Assault mech armor. I can finally feel like a battering ram instead of a giant slow moving marshmallow man.


Game is all better now.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 March 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Peiper]

The problem, and the reason for doubling tabletop values is as Zyllos said: because we can use pinpoint accurate shots with many of our weapons. In tabletop, EVERY weapon hit random locations when fired. This is not the case here, and it is why people boat weapons.

Increasing armor will not cure the problem this issue causes, but splash damage would. So: if an AC10 hit a side torso, let's say, then have it set up so that it does 5 points to that location and 1 point to every surrounding location. It would take the 'twitch' out of the game, but it would make the game more 'tabletop-like' without people losing the damage. (Critical damage would only go to the location hit, in this case, though.)

Another issue, and this has been illustrated well with LRM's is that when LRM'***** in tabletop, the damage is spread all over the mech at random AND the number of missles that hit, IF ANY, are random. Right now, LRM's are doing almost twice the damage per missile (unlike most weapons) AND most missles hit with artemis/TAG AND much of those hits are going to the location facing the missiles.

Increasing the armor doesn't solve the problem, but splashing some of the direct fire weapons and giving LRM's their proper damage allocation and spread would.

Carry on.

[EvilCow]

Mechs are already way too strong IMO, there are other problems to consider:

1) Weapons, single weapons are already "weak" now, all you see are boats, 4PPC, 2AC20, 6SRM6 etc.
2) Tactics, work on that, if you are taking damage you are doing it wrong.

As suggested earlier in this thread the real problem is convergence.
1) Torso weapons should not be able to converge. The torso weapons reticle moving away from the center looks really dumb IMO, worst part in the MWO simulation.
2) Weapons on arms without actuators should not be able to converge.

Fix convergence and you will remove the real issue.

[WarGruf]

How's about we ask the Devs to put the armor and weapons back to closed beta values just to show everyone what they've done so far.... Then we can all have a moan about it.

Then we could do something constructive like have a vote or a poll to see what everyone thinks.
And after that we can come to a compromise.

But anyway, I think some Mechs take far too long to die and thats whats stopping people from being able to take on their correct roles.

Lights should be scouting and staying out of trouble, Meds should be supporting the Heavies from the seccond row and Assaults should be causing chaos with direct / indirect firepower.

There is no feel to this game anymore, lights killing assaults, meds brawling with heavies, nobody trying to scout or support, just follow the blob and focus fire... Its getting boring.

We need at least some realism.

[Shepherd]

The OP's argument really doesn't mirror my experience. Well, most of the time.

In Mechwarrior 4 we had a term. I'm sure it's common to most games. The term is "noob rushing" which is when a player spawns into the game, throttles up and points their mech at the enemy spawn, and doesn't stop for anything. They just rush forward with all guns blazing. Inevitably they'd get smashed to little bits. If that's how a person plays MWO, the same thing will happen.

But you can also be playing "well" and get smashed quickly if you get attacked from the rear or flank by some striker mechs. A Splatapult and a HBK-4SP can drop most mechs in a salvo or two if they coordinate their strike well enough.

The answer to all of this is situational awareness. Be aware of how your position makes you vulnerable, and make safety your foremost concern. Don't leave a good position to chase down a damaged opponent. Don't ever (ever, ever) be very far from good cover. Don't expose yourself for a shot unless a few allies are exposing themselves at the same time.

In my experience in MWO, by following the above advice I often have a great survival rate. When I don't follow that advice.. well... not so much.

[Runenstahl]

Khobai, on 09 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Because most players hate the idea of RNG being added to the game.

Might be... but I think it would really capture the weird hightech / lowtech battletech technology

[Grayseven]

Heat needs to affect aim and convergence, just as it did in the TT game and the single player games.

Heat is the great equalizer and until this game uses heat effects as it should we will see balance issues.

If high heat were to affect convergence we would see either more damage spread from high heat builds or less shots over time from those same builds.

In addition, if heat had an effect on the HUD such as fade, flicker and outright loss at certain levels, the shots coming from mechs would not be so accurate when they ran hot. I've already experienced bugs where I completely lost my HUD and cross-hair as well as the ability to tell the difference between friend and foe and fighting under those conditions is next to impossible.

Speed loss due to heat also needs to be in effect. I'd also like to see engine hits causing heat increases instead of being outright destruction, with each engine hit having an increased chance of loss of fusion containment resulting in destruction.

If ammo explosions don't cause heat build up, they should. It would make splatcat builds a little like driving a bomb just waiting to start cooking off ammo in a chain reaction that could destroy the whole mech. You'd see more thought put into builds that just "how much damage can I do in a single salvo?".

Increasing armor isn't the answer. Putting in real penalties for heat would go much farther towards balance.

[Tahribator]

Armor doesn't seem enough, because everyone is boating something; be that LRM's or Energy weapons(Lasers, PPC's).

So why is there boating? The problem isn't the armor, it's how the hardpoints are handled in game; it promotes boating. On most of the mechs, it lets us stack two weapon of the same type on top of a single visible slot. Take the Awesome 8Q for example; it has only 4 visible laser hardpoints. Yet, you can fit 7 because 3 of them take double lasers. It will melt anything in this game.

Another point is that weapon type specific hardpoints don't have weapon size restrictions. So you get Catapults going around with AC20's in those machine gun slots. When people start doing that, even the mighty Atlas feels like a paper mech against that kind of firepower. Splatcat is at the far end of this spectrum.

So what's the solution? I'd say first measure should be limiting weapon size for hardpoints. No more AC20's in that MG slot, no more PPC in that small laser slot. Second step would be removing unnecessary hardpoints from mechs, but there is no way this is happening. The uproar would be great.

Third and easiest option is increasing armor again and it's not a bad option at all. Biggest mechs would benefit the most from this.

[Malora Sidewinder]

KingCobra, on 09 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

I agree the mechs are like butter and 3-5 minute matches are a joke but you have to remember the DEVS are the old NHUA=NO HEAT UNLIMITED AMMO players that like one shot kills and mechs that melt in a few seconds.Its more like playing Planetside2 than mechwarrior.

you're kidding, right?

they already doubled the armor from TT values... double it YET AGAIN?

so each weapon essentially does 1/4 it's original damage?
i don't get it... this game is perfectly paced as it is, if anything it's a bit SLOW (ie, too much armor) sometimes.
if they increased armor dramatically, i'd probably quit.

this is the first time i've ever said that, also.

also, judging by your "NHUA" comment, i'm going to guess you didn't play MW4. at all.
MW 4 had some ridiculous amounts of firepower that could core out an assault mech pretty much instantly.
the only build that even comes CLOSE is the 6SRM a1 catapult, and even then it's totally possible to kill them before they kill you.

doubling current armor, IE QUADRUPLING original armor values would make this game unbearably slow...
why would you WANT to play this way?

Runenstahl, on 09 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

My opinion is that instead of making armor better they should make aiming worse. What about something like in World of Tanks where your shot lands somewhere in the general area you aim at, but definitely NOT with pinpoint accuracy. That should automatically "cure" weapon convergence AND make for better survivability.

oh this is a fun one...
you're suggesting that the devs totally eliminate player skill and make this, at it's core, an automated table top battletech first person that goes as fast as a dead turtle?

removing precision from the weapons would be terrible for the health of the game. a game NEEDS to have the elite players that are a tier above everyone else. taking away their ability to play better eliminates them, and last time i checked competitve games did not subscribe to a marxist philosophy.

Zyllos, on 09 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

But since they have doubled armor, single weapons are completely worthless. So now everyone wields multiples in locations in which they will converge onto a single point.

they do?
i drop with other highly skilled pilots almost every night, and this is the first time i'm hearing this argument.

actually, i think you just made that up.

oh wait. you did just make that up.

it's cool, if you want to say outrageous things with no logic behind them on the internet, you have every right to.

to be real with you, man... i don't even see how you could remotely come to that conclusion.
it's pure fiction.

weapon convergence is a complete non issue... do NOT try to blame weapon convergence (which is nearly instantaneous) for your utter inability to hit moving targets.

it is NOT the game's fault that you are bad at it, own up to it and try to get better instead of saying convergence is to blame.

[DanielZX]

Imao:

Malora Siderwind +1, no need to make random hit mechanics - it will eliminate competitive part of gameplay and difference between ppl who are trying to shoot directly or just firing in enemies direction, also random hit mechanics will give chance of "golden bullet" shots. Right now balance between weapons and armor is fine. And now what is wrong:

1) Heat level that mechs can sustain - I suggest to decrease the amount of heat every mech can sustain till turning off, but increase the rate of cooling. What it will give us: 4ppcs+ or 6srms6 builds would be able to fire just SINGLE alpha strike in one point and they will be turned off or should overrun reactor with possibility of destroying it, so there will be no need in focus builds or they will be used much more carefully. Also it will partially solve problem with ping difference - ppl with ping below 100 have HUGE advantage with current game mechanics vs ppl with ping 200+.

2) Fix XL engines - with ability to fire directly to torso sides, weight bonus from XL engine is too low, I suggest when the right/left torso sides are destroyed it wont cause instant mech destruction but the effectivness of engine will be decreased also passive heat generation should be increased. Example: Pretty baby with XL340, mech fully operational, speed 69kph, passive heat generation at max speed 4%, and if right/left torso will be destroyed max speed should drop down to 45-50kph and passive heat generation should be 15-20%

3) Greatly increase passive heat generation while running at max speed, light mechs can run 100+ kph and fire streaks and mlas almost non-stop, they should choose between using speed to get advantage at positioning or to move slower but fire more often, right now they can just run in circles and fire non-stop at heavy/assault back.

4) Give all weapons heat dmg, even in lore any laser or ppc hit causes heat generation at target location. So every energy weapon and also large caliber AC (10-20) should increase targets heat level.
5) Fix lag shield and dmg models of some lights.

Edited by Zin, 10 March 2013 - 03:09 AM.

[Blue Boutique]

Peiper, on 09 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Another issue, and this has been illustrated well with LRM's is that when LRM'***** in tabletop, the damage is spread all over the mech at random AND the number of missles that hit, IF ANY, are random. Right now, LRM's are doing almost twice the damage per missile (unlike most weapons) AND most missles hit with artemis/TAG AND much of those hits are going to the location facing the missiles.

Another Tatbletop rule post. Have you ever thought that the tabletop pilot you command have years of continous training in piloting and damage propagation whilel we MWO pilots pretty much have to fit our training between real life issues?

[Elessar]

Pfft
we already have doubled armor.

All these problems (that led to the doubling of armor firsthand) wouldn´t exist,
if we didn´t have pinpoint accuracy of the weapons.

Make the target reticle a circle that enlarges with actions like heat or movement
and let all shots land randomized within this circle and bingo, you have a system that more resembles the spread of the original Battletech system (and in which 5 medium lasers don´t automatically act as a single Laser with 25 Damage and 15 heat)

Systems like this have been suggested multiple times inside and outside of closed Beta
and are much better than trying to adjust the armor or weapons damage/recycle

Edited by Elessar, 10 March 2013 - 03:36 AM.

[von Pilsner]

Elessar, on 10 March 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Pfft
we already have doubled armor.

All these problems (that led to the doubling of armor firsthand) wouldn´t exist,
if we didn´t have pinpoint accuracy of the weapons.

Make the target reticle a circle that enlarges with actions like heat or movement
and let all shots land randomized within this circle and bingo, you have a system that more resembles the spread of the original Battletech system (and in which 5 medium lasers don´t automatically act as a single Laser with 25 Damage and 15 heat)

Systems like this have been suggested multiple times inside and outside of closed Beta
and are much better than trying to adjust the armor or weapons damage/recycle

That would really ruin the game for me, I prefer my shots to hit where I am aiming. If the enemy does not like it they can keep moving rather than stand still and let me line up a perfect shot...

[Peiper]

Blue Boutique, on 10 March 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

Another Tatbletop rule post. Have you ever thought that the tabletop pilot you command have years of continous training in piloting and damage propagation whilel we MWO pilots pretty much have to fit our training between real life issues?

So, you're saying we're lucky to hit ANYTHING with our weapons, let alone walk forward without falling over in our mechs?

AND, I'm sure there are lots of players out there who have thousands more hours in simulator time than the most skilled mechwarriors in the novels. Then again, we don't use nuero-helmets, have to deal with 100 plus degree cockpit temperatures, sitting in our cockpit for hours or days, stinking it up with our own waste because we can't go back to base until the sorté is over?

Let me translate that above statement: What the heck are you talking about???

Edited by Peiper, 10 March 2013 - 03:42 AM.

[Elessar]

Zin, on 10 March 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

...

3) Greatly increase passive heat generation while running at max speed, light mechs can run 100+ kph and fire streaks and mlas almost non-stop, they should choose between using speed to get advantage at positioning or to move slower but fire more often, right now they can just run in circles and fire non-stop at heavy/assault back.

...

Another problem that exists because the system in MWO employed a large deviation from Battletech

What would happen if a Jenner (8/12 MP) ran circles in Battletech (compared to one that runs straight ahead) would run circles around a battlemech?

A Jenner running straight ahead (considering that there is nothing slowing his speed (like woods) would be able to run the full 12 hexes (~128 kph)

A Jenner running in circles would just move 6 Hexes, due to the fact that he would have to spend 6 of his 12 MP on his change of attitude. With other words, the Jenner would have slowed down to ~60 kph, just a little bit more than the size of a running Atlas.

In MWO on the other hand you don´t have to slow down in order to change your direction, enabling a Jenner to run in circles around another Battlemech at his full 120 kph speed.

[Adridos]

Quadraple armor solves nothing, since we will get into MW 4 once again. Lowering damage values also doen't work, as it will just take normal builds take longer to do anything, while the boats will be the only viable option. Random hits eradicate the last bit of competetiveness and places it all into dice, so that's also a no-go.

From all the suggestions I've ever read regarding this topic, only two could theoretically work for us without making people mad and one that will make a lot of people mad and even then it's just theory and might not work at all in practice:

1) Scaling heat penalties. The guys who can end the match quickly also tend to heat up really quickly.

2) Making weapons adhere to their rightful locations when firing, adding in a less convergent fire, but without randomness.

3) This one would make a lot fo people mad, but builds like gausskitty would still wreck house even with above changes, so a maximum crit limit the weapon in the hardpoint can achieve could also help with the issue. Not as in MW4, where you could add more weapons into a crit of one, though.

Edited by Adridos, 10 March 2013 - 03:55 AM.

[John Clavell]

Armour is already doubled. We don't need more armour, this is not the way to find any kind of parity. We need continued tuning of weapons balance as and when additions and updates to the game come to pass. Examples being the changes to Artemis. Or even State Rewinding, which all knock on effect the real world effectiveness of weapon platforms.

[WildeKarde]

I think reducing the convergence is a good start, a right and left torso weapon should have a limit on being able to hit a single point on a target. This would reduce the constant alpha to single locations. Arms should be able to converge but reduce it based on actuators in the arms - full set you can converge for example.

Reduce the convergence then we make armour more effective all over to the builds that boat.

Also I'd like to see momentum take effect when running. Something running 100kpg shouldn't be able to turn without getting pulled out by momentum. Add skidding on surfaces and that would stop everyone going full speed all the time. If you run full sprint see how well you can make a 90 degree corner, never mind on snow/ice as well

[CDLord HHGD]

They have already doubled armor in Closed Beta. This part of it is balanced IMO. Perhaps you shouldn't walk around and charge into battle thinking you are an invincible tank? 'Cause you are not......

[Adridos]

cdlord, on 10 March 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

They have already doubled armor in Closed Beta. This part of it is balanced IMO. Perhaps you shouldn't walk around and charge into battle thinking you are an invincible tank? 'Cause you are not......

It's more of a preditiction of things to come. You can name the biggest damage build around and I will come up with a Clan alternative that has less weaknesses and 2x the damage. 3xUAC/20, for instance, which is 120 points of pin-point damage.