36 replies to this topic

[Badgerbanger]

The mechlab is the biggest problem with the balance in the game.

It allows people to build completely OP mehcs and prevents any sort of useful balancing being able to be done between the different weapons.

Remove the mechlab..or only allow minor modifications..and use the standard chassis only.

Most people will hate this..but if you want balance you need to remove the players from the equation..because frankly..we are the problem.

[CoffiNail]

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Yes, the VERY Premise of this game... To customize your Mechs.

You know, a lot of the OP Mechs have flaws. Learn to know what they are are use them. 6xPPC Stalker? Get in nice and close and he cannot get you. Terrain is the key here.

Splatacat? Try and get him from afar, where his missiles are pointless. Even better, 'ear' the CAT and let him wander aimlessly while you pick apart his friends.

Sorry, but 'cheese' builds are flawed as well, I have no fear from most cheese builds unless they catch me unaware.

[Sheraf]

If mechlab is removed then there is no point to play this game anymore to me

[IrrelevantFish]

Terrible, terrible idea. Just terrible. Half the fun is customizing your mechs, and CoffiNail is absolutely right: cheese is inherently vulnerable and practically useless on its own. In my JR7-D, there's nothing more fun to solo than Splatcats, LRM boats, and PPC Stalkers.

Having said that, there are still balance issues, as cheese builds can become nigh unstoppable with a modicum of support, particularly from other cheese builds. A Splatcat parked near a PPC Stalker is a ridiculously tough nut to crack.

[Badgerbanger]

It may well be a terrible idea..from our point of view of what we think is fun.

However, it is the ONLY way to balance the mechs and equipment that will work....hence it's posted in the game balance forum.

[Kelpaz]

The mechlab is what makes the game complete for me.
Half the fun comes from spending hours in the mechlab tweaking my favorite mechs.
The other half is combat.

You can't really completely remove boats by limiting mechlab either as some mechs comes as boat standard.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yeoman
(Yeah I know it's super ugly lol)

There are already a few legit boats available in MWO too, like the Hunchie 4P, Stalkers and Catapults

If there was no mechlab or just really limited customization, then I am sure I wouldn't play this game.

[Royalewithcheese]

The solution here is to make good custom mechs, not to take everyone else's ability to make good custom mechs. Let's not have nothing but this:

[Deathlike]

The actual problem with stock mech play in MWO... your options are so bad, you want to facepalm.

There would need to be a massive buff to SHS before this is even a legit request.

[IrrelevantFish]

Badgerbanger, on 08 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

However, it is the ONLY way to balance the mechs and equipment that will work....hence it's posted in the game balance forum.

I strongly disagree. While balancing is most assuredly trickier with the near-infinite variation available, it's hardly impossible. For example, one of my least favorite builds to deal with right now is the 6xPPC Stalker. To nerf it without nerfing PPC's in general, why not make PPC's fired in close succession have a synergistic effect on heat build-up? Something along the lines of the first PPC generating 8 heat, the second 9, the third 10, etc. This would make the 48-heat alpha Stalkers currently deal with into a 63-heat alpha. Job done.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Might as well ask them to remove most of the playerbase.

[FrostCollar]

Remove the mechlab? Might as well remove the mechs.

[Headlessnewt]

I see what you're saying, but no.

Player creativity is what makes the game fun.

Tricking out your mech is what makes the game fun, also it's what provides incentive to continue playing, and to continue paying.

Although admittedly the game would be much easier to balance without personal customization.

[Xandralkus]

Badgerbanger, on 08 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

It may well be a terrible idea..from our point of view of what we think is fun.

However, it is the ONLY way to balance the mechs and equipment that will work....hence it's posted in the game balance forum.

There are ways to have perfect game balance while simultaneously allowing player freedom to approach infinity. Presently, the devs have failed miserably to give us either one.

BALANCE the weapons. What do I mean by that? Give the weapons broad, generalist roles - and start balancing things such as alpha per ton, DPS per ton, damage per heat, DPS per heat stable tonnage, and ease of firepower application (only one of these is not mathematically expressible and must be abstracted). This means that a Splatcat will have NO unfair advantage over a catapult armed with a handful of lasers, machineguns, and a few missiles. The Splatcat will have its own little deviations - maybe give up some DPS per ton and damage per heat in exchange for a little more alpha per ton, but a bad Splatcat pilot will still get savagely and utterly incinerated by any decent catapult pilot, regardless of their build.

TLDR: Boats will have no statistical advantage over canon builds.

I already did the math. Type these values into the servers: http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry1477020 . 99% of this can be done by next Tuesday.

Problem annihilated. Next?

[Headlessnewt]

Xandralkus, on 08 March 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...20#entry1477020

The problem with your (quite radical) approach to balancing things is that you're rebuilding the entire system from the ground up.

Hardpoints aren't going anywhere, that's the dev's ball and they're running with it. Your math is solid and your system would balance, but since you've built it on a flawed assumption it's not really relevant, unfortunately.

Edited by Headlessnewt, 08 March 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[CoffiNail]

Badgerbanger, on 08 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

It may well be a terrible idea..from our point of view of what we think is fun.

However, it is the ONLY way to balance the mechs and equipment that will work....hence it's posted in the game balance forum.

No, you need to learn to play. THAT is the ONLY way. Want no mechlab, go play MechWarrior Living Legends. DAMN good game, no custom mechs.

[Pereset]

I agree with the pilots who are saying that you need to learn how to play the game. We founders who have been testing the system knew from the start that it would take a very long time to establish balance between weapons systems. Please be aware that the same balance and unbalance exists in the real world. You might as well argue the differences between Kalashnikov vs. the M-16 (or any other assault rifle in the world arsenal today). Or perhaps the Tomahawk vs. Exocet (or any other cruise missile in the world arsenal). Or even the Chinese FN-6 vs. the FIM-92 Stinger Surface-to-air missile? Which one is better? Everyone has an opinion about what is better than the other in real life, just as everyone has an opinion about what weapon system works best on what mech. What is missing from the equation is the balance that one brings to the mech.

Let's see if we can get some real-life Army tank drivers involved in this discussion.

If tank gunners in real world tanks were not able to switch the type of rounds available to them in their weapon systems (yes, a tank is in fact, a weapon system), how effective would they be? If tank drivers are pounding a reinforced bunker with armor-piercing rounds, as opposed to high-explosive incendiary rounds, what is the effectiveness of each round in neutralizing the threat?

What about tactics and strategy?

When I was in the Navy (I was a tactical/strategic specialist for over 20 years), one of the things we always talked about was the difference in how we fought, compared to the way the Russians fought. Russian "battlewagons" seemed to be outfitted with every one-shot humongous missile that could fit on the ship. Ours on the other hand, were not so large, and the missiles were kept belowdecks, in armories, ready to be loaded on the rail, one or two at a time. We always had backup missiles to the missiles that we had. Yes, like the Russians, we did in fact, feature some missiles that were in structures welded to the deck, but our strategy was to work smart. The Russian strategy was to target you, and throw every missile they had (including the kitchen sink) at you, in hopes of taking you and all the other ships around you out of commission.

When I'm on the virtual battlefield, I see those tactics employed all the time. Do they work? You all know the answer to that question, and you see what happens when you have mechwarrior pilots on the field, banding together in groups, using voice for command-and-control. Those houses you've joined are like to countries. And the tactics you've evolved in those games are akin to real-world simulations that I have seen played out over and over again.

Take out the mechlab? I don't think so.

Think out your tactics and strategies, based on the mech that you have selected. Work out the kinks in your mechs. You'll find good and bad points about those mechs when you take them out in the field for your live fire exercises. Above all, use your brain when you are setting up your mech in relation to the hardpoints, that compliment your own skills as a mechwarrior pilot. Gunnery plays an important part as well. Do you take cover, or just charge out onto the field? How many of us have seen the pilots in our team, that either cower at the wrong times under missile barrages, or refuse to communicate during the match?

Communication and strategy is key in this game. If you don't know it, learn it. Above all...have fun doing it, and learn, learn, learn.

[Mokou]

Remove part of the mechlab = remove part of the mechwarrior game IMHO

[Volume]

I've been asking for a stock mode, and preset variant mode (a la MW:LL) since before day 1.

[Xandralkus]

Headlessnewt, on 08 March 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

The problem with your (quite radical) approach to balancing things is that you're rebuilding the entire system from the ground up.

Hardpoints aren't going anywhere, that's the dev's ball and they're running with it. Your math is solid and your system would balance, but since you've built it on a flawed assumption it's not really relevant, unfortunately.

Is anything short of a total system rebuild going to accomplish anything of statistical significance? I don't think so. A complete mechanical rebuild is inferred by my thread title: "A total, fundamental, sweeping redesign of all weapon values".

Granted, getting the devs to actually do it would be nothing short of a miracle, and I'll agree, inferring the possibility exists at all is highly idealistic even under the best of circumstances. This doesn't change the fact that the devs made hideously poor decisions when trying to balance the game.

Really, all of the features, weapons, and mechs feel as if they were written by coders or managers. The action of designing game mechanics with any degree of competency & eloquence, and the action of building the code for the game...are two entirely different operations. The person making the decision of what numbers to type into the servers for weapon values should not be a coder or a manager.

Yeah, they are the ones designing the game, and they are indeed running with the hardpoint-centric ball, but that doesn't make it any less of a ludicrously bad idea. I'm never monetizing their game again until they figure out how to game design.

Game design is not supposed to be easy. It is supposed to be difficult and complicated. It is an exercise in artistic mathematics, which is a VERY bizarre and obscure field. It's no wonder that almost everyone who tries it ends up performing a warpspeed-faceplant-fail. If game design were easy, it would imbalance and break the risk/reward system of designing games.

Edited by Xandralkus, 08 March 2013 - 09:56 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

The OP is right. The mechlab will be the end of any enjoyment of this game. I agree too with the other posters though. You need a mech lab to get people to play, as Battletech draws the min/maxers. Its one of the strong pulls to this game for them. What they should have done is let you make SOME adjustments, not a full on total revamp. In the long run this would make MWO a much better game. However if they did it now the children would cry rivers. I do think that the ones that would leave might help MWO so maybe they should do it...