41 replies to this topic

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Renthrak, on 10 March 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

One of the balance issues with the Atlas vs Stalker is the result of the source material.

The Stalker is designed as a gunboat, while the Atlas is more of a brawler. In TT, one disadvantage of the Stalker vs the Atlas is that a Stalker's arms have no melee capability. So once an Atlas closes with a Stalker, it can punch it to death. Without melee in MWO, this balancing factor does not exist.

nothing stops the Stalker from kicking... Do you people even play the TT?!?

[Eggs Mayhem]

IrrelevantFish, on 10 March 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

LRM buffs are to blame for the fragility of assaults. I hope PGI nerfs them a bit.

I agree, but I think a slightly different approach may be necessary. In addition to an increase to missile spread for both art and non-art clusters, I think that the pathing for LRMs need to be changed so that they lead their target. You know how every mech moving 100kph+ only has LRMs nipping at their heels? I think this change will help change that and make LRMs more of a threat to lights. They'll still be capable of moving either behind cover or behind an enemy mech, so they don't lose their speed advantage, but there's not that massive LRM effectiveness gap that we see between the different speed brackets.

Unless of course PGI intends to keep LRMs a niche weapon against bigger, slower targets. Either way, a spread increase is necessary.

[Voyager I]

Khobai, on 11 March 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Not really. When my commando tops the damage charts its almost always because I wolfpacked with other light mechs and we just tore apart the enemy team because they couldnt kill us faster than we could kill them.

Go ahead and try it... make a 4-man with four Raven-3Ls/Commando-2Ds. Drop into some PUG games. You will win 99% of your games because half the time matchmaking doesnt even put a single light mech on the other team. And the other half of the time itll be like a fail Raven 2X or 4X and maybe like a spider or a jenner.

Light mechs are blatantly better than any other weight class of mech right now. They tank damage the best, they work together in groups the best, they're capable of doing just as much damage as assaults, and theyre the best suited for capture gamemodes.

A wolfpack works against uncoordinated teams in pubs because they're amazing at catching people out of position and there are decent odds that the other team will be a continuous stream of stragglers. That does not mean it's a good strategy against any team that is prepared to counter coordination with the same and brought robots that can absorb return fire.

Centurion wolfpacks, on the other hand, are ******* terrifying outside of a few specific hard counters.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Khobai, on 11 March 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Not really. When my commando tops the damage charts its almost always because I wolfpacked with other light mechs and we just tore apart the enemy team because they couldnt kill us faster than we could kill them.

Go ahead and try it... make a 4-man with four Raven-3Ls/Commando-2Ds. Drop into some PUG games. You will win 99% of your games because half the time matchmaking doesnt even put a single light mech on the other team. And the other half of the time itll be like a fail Raven 2X or 4X and maybe like a spider or a jenner.

Light mechs are blatantly better than any other weight class of mech right now. They tank damage the best, they work together in groups the best, they're capable of doing just as much damage as assaults, and theyre the best suited for capture gamemodes.

Welcome to a month ago.
You are going to find that these tactics are far less effective than they have been.
The recent netcode changes have made a drastic impact on light mechs, we ran across a few of these wolfpacks today and they did not fare well.

[Khobai]

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Welcome to a month ago.
You are going to find that these tactics are far less effective than they have been.
The recent netcode changes have made a drastic impact on light mechs, we ran across a few of these wolfpacks today and they did not fare well.

Wolfpacking is far from dead. We win 99% of our games. The only games we've lost were against other 4-mans with three or four D-DCs or Raven-3Ls. So basically we only lose against 4-mans that have more ECM than us.

I play both assaults and lights and from my perspective light mechs are better in just about every way. The ability to engage and disengage at will is huge. Assaults can't run away so once they commit to a fight they're stuck in it even if it goes badly. That problem is further compounded by the fact assaults are actually easier to kill than light mechs. IMO as long as light mechs are harder to kill than assault mechs, then assault mechs are not performing their intended role; I firmly believe that assault mechs should be the toughest mechs to kill in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2013 - 08:32 PM.

[Zyllos]

What's killing Assault mechs, compared to Light mechs, is that it's too easy to converge all weaponry on a mech into a single point. So large, slow mechs generally only have 1 or 2 locations you ever fire at because it either kills the mech or knocks out a majority of it's weaponry.

And since Light mechs generally move quickly, when firing at one, your fire gets spread all around the mech, regardless of weapon convergence except in the case of high damage alpha strikes...which is why many people use them, they circumvent the issues of having to worry about hitting a single location.

So, I am going to keep hounding this as a huge flaw in MWO. It has always been an issue in past MechWarrior games and history is repeating itself again.

Weapon convergence is the issue...

[John MatriX82]

Atlas and Stalkers are two totally different assaults.. and no, stalkers don't have more armor than Atlases, you'll always miss from 12 to 16 points of armour to the front.

And the greatest difference is that with the Atlas its arms allow it to tank huge chunks of enemy fire, something that the armless stalker can't even think about. The only pro of the STK is that it's quite slim, and usually damage is spread all over from the ct to the side torsoes.

[Corvus Antaka]

meh ... My assault mechs are wokring just fine. Not having any big problems with lights at all beyond the raven 3L due to its damn raven profile! but thats part of the game...oh well.

[Kmieciu]

Atlas DC is a better brawler than any Stalker, even without ECM.

[sC4r]

RS atlas is as good or better direct fire support/sniper than stalker
DDC is by far better brawler than any stalker may be
DDC or D are fair lrm support mechs, not so good as stalker though
DDC, D and K are better zombies than any stalker can be
Every well handled atlas will outlive stalker

seems like OP has still ways till he gets how this mech works... good luck

[IrrelevantFish]

EmperorMyrf, on 11 March 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

You know how every mech moving 100kph+ only has LRMs nipping at their heels? I think this change will help change that and make LRMs more of a threat to lights.

I'm fully aware of lights' LRM resistance and I'm in favor of it. Increased vulnerability to LRMs will reduce lights' scouting ability far more than their combat ability, resulting in lights acting less as scouts and more as combat mechs, the opposite of what I think you're aiming for.

Besides, lights are just as vulnerable as assaults once solidly targeted. Yes, fewer LRMs hit them, but they also can't take as many.

Khobai, on 10 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

The Stalker has way more crit slots though ... And the lower arm actuators don't really help any of the Atlases other than the RS anyway since they only have 1 weapon in each arm.

"Way more crit slots" is a gross exaggeration. Also, the arm actuators do indeed help in the D, D-DC, and K, as you can put some mean weapons in those two energy hardpoints. They also make Atlases potentially capable of handling lights, whereas Stalkers are inherently easy prey. I've soloed many an unsupported Stalker in my Jenner, but a decent Atlas pilot can usually drive me off before I can do more than scratch their paint.

Khobai, on 10 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Additionally SRM6s give the best damage to heat ratio of any weapon other than LRMs which have severe drawbacks (i.e. ECM). Missile hardpoints are way better than Ballistic hardpoints currently.

SRMs may deliver a lot of damage, but it's spread out. I can core an Atlas almost as quickly with my 4xLL CPLT-K2 as I can in my Splatcat.

Khobai, on 10 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Stalkers also have a much smaller profile, move faster, and do way more alpha strike damage.

Though Atlases are larger overall, most of their profile is their arms, whereas Stalkers have ginormous side torsos that make them very easy to Zombie. Also, Stalkers are only slightly faster in theory (65.0kph vs. 64.2kph) and much slower in practice, due to Stalker pilots' proclivity to load their mech to the gills with guns.

And speaking of armory-toting, yes, Stalkers usually have higher alphas, but never for long. Stalkers are support mechs, which is something I enjoy proving on a regular basis by blowing away shut-down Stalkers foolish enough to brawl with me when I'm in my Atlases.

Khobai, on 10 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Really the only advantage the Atlas has is ECM on the D-DC. Which is a strong advantage but how long is it gonna be before ECM gets nerfed hard? We all know its coming...

Know it's coming? No. Hope and pray it's coming? Yes.

Khobai, on 10 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Except you often see Ravens or Commandos topping the damage charts. The reality is lights can do just as much or more damage than assaults. Assaults are worse at tanking and not even guaranteed to do more damage than Lights. Although that's mostly due to Streaks being so overpowered.

No, it's ECM and not Streaks that are to blame, and I very rarely see Commandos at the top. And if you see Streaks pushing people to the top of the charts, you are being matched up with some seriously crappy players. Me, for example.

RVN-3L's are a whole different problem, and worthy of every last thread complaining about them.

Khobai, on 11 March 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

When my commando tops the damage charts its almost always because I wolfpacked with other light mechs and we just tore apart the enemy team because they couldnt kill us faster than we could kill them.

Wolf-packs weren't OP until ECM made lights Streak-proof. Even now, with state rewind for lasers and reasonably skilled opposition, it is quite difficult to take down heavier mechs unless they're all alone or distracted. Removing the Streak-shield will force wolf-packs to go back to harassing and picking off stragglers.

[Khobai]

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"Way more crit slots" is a gross exaggeration.

Except its not an exaggeration at all. The Stalker gets 4 extra crit slots. Furthermore, the better distribution of weapon hardpoints, and lack of ballistic hardpoints, means the Stalker can mount far more double heatsinks. The Atlas has to equip a 350 engine just to keep up in DHS. So yes the Stalker has a huge crit slot advantage.

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and I very rarely see Commandos at the top.

Then you've had the fortune of not playing against me in a Commando. I nearly always top the damage charts in my Commando-2d. Since Commandos run out of ammo rather quickly youre not always guaranteed to get 1st place though. Sometimes you just have to settle for 2nd place. And the thing is, I'm only an above average light pilot at best... there are players that are way better at piloting lights than I am. I only play Commandos for fun because I'm sick of my Atlas after winning the assault bracket in the be a hero tournament. I know Raven pilots that consistently get 800-900 damage per match though.

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Wolf-packs weren't OP until ECM made lights Streak-proof.

Maybe its ECM, maybe its streaks, maybe a combination of both. But the point is light mechs are OP now. And as long as light mechs are better at tanking than assault mechs we have a balance problem.

Edited by Khobai, 12 March 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[IrrelevantFish]

Khobai, on 12 March 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

The Stalker gets 4 extra crit slots. Furthermore, the better distribution of weapon hardpoints, and lack of ballistic hardpoints, means the Stalker can mount far more double heatsinks.

Four crits allows one extra DHS, which (as you mentioned) whereas a 350 allows two, while also granting you additional speed. And arms. Arms, dude. I find it ironic that you think Stalkers and lights are both OP, because Stalkers are the absolute worst mech in the game for dealing with lights. When I'm in a Jenner, there's nothing that makes me feel quite so gleeful as the sight of a lone, unsupported Stalker.

Additionally, ballistics mean Atlases don't need as many heatsinks, and quite frankly, you can only mount so many energy weapons on a mech before the heat becomes unmanageable. Since Stalkers seem to spend half their time shut down, I'd say they've passed it.

Khobai, on 12 March 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Then you've had the fortune of not playing against me in a Commando. I nearly always top the damage charts in my Commando-2d.

I guess not, because I've always found Commandos to be only a minor irritant, unless I'm in a Jenner and the Commando in question has three Streaks. Then I find them mildly threatening.

Khobai, on 12 March 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Maybe its ECM, maybe its streaks, maybe a combination of both. But the point is light mechs are OP now. And as long as light mechs are better at tanking than assault mechs we have a balance problem.

Even with ECM and Streaks as is, I still don't find lights to be unmanageably unbalanced, with the sole and grievous exception of the RVN-3L. Yes, Jenners, Spiders, and Commandos can be tricky, but in my experience, you can deal with them effectively if you haven't wandered off by yourself, aren't in a Stalker, and are equipped and competent with lasers, LB-10X's, and/or standard SRMs.

IMO, the reasons lights seem OP are 1) too many players don't fit those qualifications, 2) lots of experienced assault mech pilots like yourself are migrating to lights in search of fresh challenges, and 3) all lights become much more dangerous when they've got RVN-3Ls to tank for them.

In other words, it's not lights that are OP. It's skill and 3L's.

[Khobai]

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I guess not, because I've always found Commandos to be only a minor irritant, unless I'm in a Jenner and the Commando in question has three Streaks. Then I find them mildly threatening.

This is a pretty normal match for me in my Commando. I typically get 500-700 damage and 4-5 kills.

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Four crits allows one extra DHS, which (as you mentioned) whereas a 350 allows two

Nope. It allows two extra DHS. One extra per arm. Also the Atlas has to use Ballistic weapons which take up way more crit slots than SRMs or medium lasers. So the Atlas loses 3 potential DHS to its ballistic weapons. And good luck fitting a 350 standard engine in an Atlas and still being competitive, lol.

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I find it ironic that you think Stalkers and lights are both OP

I dont think Stalkers are OP at all. I just think Stalkers are outright better than Atlases. Assaults in general are way worse than lights IMO though.

The only mechs I think are truly OP are Raven-3Ls and Commando-2Ds. Its just silly that light mechs can tank more damage than assaults and still do that kind of damage.

Edited by Khobai, 12 March 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[DegeneratePervert]

The Atlas is a machine built to tank around the front lines, scaring the crap out of people, using it's COMBINATION of weapons to be effective at all ranges, since one must target various locations to take out specific weapons, meanwhile the Atlas is killing you. The Stalker is a back-line mech as far as I'm concerned, since my triple UAC5 Ilya seems to be able to pop all their weapons off by just focus firing the center torso at full auto.

This is coming from a guy who's mastered every Atlas (sans K... what's the point of that thing?) and elite'd three stalkers, including a 5 ML 5 SRM6 100 point alpha-strike monstrosity.

[sC4r]

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Nope. It allows two extra DHS. One extra per arm. Also the Atlas has to use Ballistic weapons which take up way more crit slots than SRMs or medium lasers. So the Atlas loses 3 potential DHS to its ballistic weapons. And good luck fitting a 350 standard engine in an Atlas and still being competitive, lol.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d97561a36dbb664
it looks stupid (very stupid) but hell it works for some reason... also you could do it in any other variant
dont have a pic but its possible to do 700+ dmg with this

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I dont think Stalkers are OP at all. I just think Stalkers are outright better than Atlases. Assaults in general are way worse than lights IMO though.

The only mechs I think are truly OP are Raven-3Ls and Commando-2Ds. Its just silly that light mechs can tank more damage than assaults and still do that kind of damage.

disagree here stalker isnt better than atlas... i stated my opinion on this earlier

as for commando being op... this is a joke right? yes you can pilot it well and do solid damage too... too bad if atlas has to drop a poo you will not survive
with raven 1v1 atlas wins... with flock of ravens... damn thats not fair -> raven op

[captaincabbage]

Khobai, on 09 March 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Assaults in general are too easy to kill at the moment. They cant tank damage at all like light mechs can.

I wish someone had told me. I've been up against a single Atlas in my Kat, with two other 'mechs strafing and hammering and we've all been taken out by him before we could even get a second arm off him! XD

zztophat, on 09 March 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

I'll agree with that, I die far more often in my Atlas than my Jenner, the ablitiy to dodge incomming fire and take cover being the ultimate armor.

Truly the best protection is to not get hit at all. It does feel like the armour for the Lights and Assaults has been switched at times.
I can't tell you how many times I hit this one guy in a Jenner with my twin PPCs before I managed to take him down. Hell, even then it was only because a teammate rocking an AC20 Hunchback came over and helped me. Maybe I really do suck that bad.

[M0rpHeu5]

In MWO the more missile hardpoints a mech has the stronger it is, nerf SRM damage and then compair again

[Yokaiko]

Nephero, on 09 March 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

I was thinking...I'm an Atlas. I'm the heaviest Mech on the Field. So you would think heaviest mech, would have the most armor right? Nope, the Stalker does. Ok, then definitely I have the most amount of weapons to mount. WRONG! Oh, look, the stalker does. Wait. If I'm the heaviest, why am I not either the most armored OR at least the heaviest armed? Why is the lighter mech under me taking all the thunder that I should logically have? Can I at least get some speed to compensate what I don't have (that I should have)? Am I missing something???

sincerely,

A die hard Atlas Pilot.

If you are losing to stalkers that aren't in groups of three there is something wrong.

[blinkin]

Yokaiko, on 13 March 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

If you are losing to stalkers that aren't in groups of three there is something wrong.

a bus going down the street is also dangerous and in both cases the solution is the same, don't stand in front of it.

even an atlas can walk past a stalker. you don't even need to get behind it, simply get beside it and it cannot turn it's head enough where the atlas can and it can swing it's arms even further. stalker is mostly 60 degrees with one variant going as far as 85 degrees. the atlas has 80 degrees of torso twist in every case with arms that can twist another 40 degrees.