60 replies to this topic

[Phoenix Gray]

Entertaining as all these MG tests are, the important question for me is, WHAT WEAPON ARE YOU ALL USING TO MAKE THOSE DAMN MECHS STAND STILL?!

THAT'S the weapon I want!

[Selfish]

MGs currently crit like a boss because they have a 94% chance to double crit. Once that's fixed they can be re-evaluated by the playerbase, but the theory crafted numbers should be fairly accurate. Mechs that are forced to boat MGs are in a pretty bad spot, and as mechs hit the heavy weight range they're better off fitting AC/5's and higher in groups. It really leaves MGs as an option for mediums like the 4G and 7K, who can still fit enough burst to kill an opponent and enough MGs to exploit a component while their burst recycles.

Phaesphoros, on 11 March 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

I'll post this now for the third time. It's an overview how the engine would be destroyed (15 health vs. normal items 10 health but gauss, ac/20) if there were engine critical hits.

The engine can already be critically destroyed. It just lacks an effect, and is essentially a 15 HP buffer.

[FupDup]

Selfish, on 11 March 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

MGs currently crit like a boss because they have a 94% chance to double crit.

Funny, because most of my time using MGs post-buff on my Raven 4X resulted in lots of wasted MG bullets and very few destroyed components without ripping off the whole area with 2 LL. RNG is a bad way to balance weapons.

Edited by FupDup, 11 March 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Phoenix Gray, on 11 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Entertaining as all these MG tests are, the important question for me is, WHAT WEAPON ARE YOU ALL USING TO MAKE THOSE DAMN MECHS STAND STILL?!

THAT'S the weapon I want!

Well as I've noted in previous thread. These tests are only in the best 'ideal' situation. Sneaking up on someone and dealing damage. Its just to show raw damage output with the same test conditions.

[Terror Teddy]

My gripe is not the crit bonus but simple stat conversion.

PGI took TT values, boosted ALL of them in the case of ballistics except MG's.

It was an equivalent of the AC with limited range. Lets compare them.

AC/2
Time-to-emty: 37.5 seconds per tonne
Damage per tonne: 150

MG's
Time-to-emty: 200 seconds per tonne
Damage per tonne: 80

Average TtE is 40-50 seconds and 125-150 damage per tonne on all other ballistics.

The 50% LESS damage per tonne and FOUR TIMES less fire rate is just insanely low even WITH this apparently wonderful crit bonus that is as rare as a lightning strike.

Seriously, there HAS to be a typo in the MG stats somewhere because the astronomical difference in efficiency of a 20mm machinegun/vulcan gun makes no bloody sense.

[Sifright]

FupDup, on 11 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

He's just being sarcastic; he actually wants MGs to be good (I've seen him say it outright in some other MG threads).


EDIT: He even said it in this thread, lol:

b-b-b-b-but my tsundere image?

Also I get that, I was making a funny and making fun of people who think crit seeking is a thing.

[Esplodin]

General Taskeen, on 11 March 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Well as I've noted in previous thread. These tests are only in the best 'ideal' situation. Sneaking up on someone and dealing damage. Its just to show raw damage output with the same test conditions.

I actually took a MG and a ton of ammo vs. the commando in Forrest Colony Test in my SDR-5K. I used my normal evasion tactics - JJ, random turns, etc. Burned through the entire 2000 rounds and never penetrated the armor. Either I'm the worst shot ever (not discounting this) or the MG is useless for 95% of all mech on mech encounters.

Yes, I'm using the testing grounds to practice my move, jump, evade aim for cockpits. 36 points on every mech - the great equalizer. Incidentally it would take a MG over 1000 rounds (spread damage) and over 100 seconds of time on target in 1-2 second bursts, or about 300 - 500 seconds, that 2 med pulse can do in 3-4 shots.

Edited by Esplodin, 11 March 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Foxwalker]

The only purpose I have actually seen so far for machine guns is the humiliation factor.
So far I have only seen them used in that manor, to kill an already nearly armorless and/or weaponless mech.

Just a way to kick a player when they are already having a bad day.

[FupDup]

Sifright, on 11 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

b-b-b-b-but my tsundere image?

Also I get that, I was making a funny and making fun of people who think crit seeking is a thing.

My bad then, I misinterpreted it as you taking his post seriously and thinking that he supported crit-seekingness.

[Sifright]

FupDup, on 11 March 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

My bad then, I misinterpreted it as you taking his post seriously and thinking that he supported crit-seekingness.

I-i-i-i- it's not like i hate him or anything!!

[Zordicron]

Utilyan, on 11 March 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

You guys should start a poll and ask.........

If the MG shot paint balls instead........... do you think it would be more dangerous?


Cuz I could imagine my windshield all covered in paint...........and i'd be like man.....that fk' paint ball raven shot my az....... that little twerp i hope a awsome steps on his chickeny chicky feet.....

lol

Damn paintball ravens. move over 3L, here comes something leaner.

[Selfish]

FupDup, on 11 March 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Funny, because most of my time using MGs post-buff on my Raven 4X resulted in lots of wasted MG bullets and very few destroyed components without ripping off the whole area with 2 LL. RNG is a bad way to balance weapons.

I haven't run into that issue. If you prefer footage of crits in the field, I recorded this back when the changes were released. Testing grounds didn't exist yet so I hopped into a 3C and 4G.

At the sheer volume of fire the RNG of an MG shouldn't even be noticeable. If you're not seeing crits you're either missing, out of range, or hitting the wrong component. MGs currently have a chance to crit of 139% so they're very prevalent at the moment. Even when the MG is working as intended (69%) they will rarely produce chaotic results. It's on the slower firing burst damage weapons that RNG is in full effect. You either get it or you don't, and you usually only spend a couple salvos to take down a target.

A pair of MGs or greater will still have a high chance of destroying several items in the time it takes your heavier hitting weapons to recycle (2-4 seconds). That is in my opinion the only niche the MG has. It allows you to recoup your failed rolls to crit, or if you're using lasers (like LLs) it allows you to achieve a similar result to burst salvos.This puts MG boating mechs like the 3C and 5K at a disadvantage. They can't fit actual damage because they don't have the hardpoints for it, so they end up the most able to crit with the least opportunity to be useful at it. MGs aren't a primary weapon system. I treat them as much the same as AMS. They're just a slightly more heavy, offensive utility.

[Terror Teddy]

Selfish, on 11 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

MGs aren't a primary weapon system. I treat them as much the same as AMS. They're just a slightly more heavy, offensive utility.

The problem is that they WERE a primary weapon system.
That's the main issue.

I get it that they've given it a crit bonus but ALL OTHER weapons got a damage bonus at least equivalent to what they had from core rules that PGI picked from.

Now, I'm no boardgame fanatic but the numbers dont add up.

The weapon it was EQUAL to in damage is now 10 times more powerful in DPS - The MG is now completely changed - it's not even REMOTELY close to the data they based it all on.

1/10 the DPS of the AC2 (I could understand 1/2 but not 1/10)
5 times longer to deliver the damage per tonne (37,5 vs 200 seconds)
60% LESS damage per tonne

I get it that they want a role but even WITH the crit bonus it simply does not defend the completely abysmal stats the weapon has received.

BT MG's are 20mm machineguns, the same caliber as the SMALLEST caliber on AC/2's.

It WAS a primary weapon that has now been reduced to something completely ridiculous.

EDIT: I almost forgot. Speed 100 - as slow as LRM missiles that fly gracefully across the sky - unlike the AC2 that goes 2000...

Edited by Terror Teddy, 11 March 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

they are not primary weapons. you build a mech, you have a little tonnage left over, you toss them on.

for example, 2 machine guns and a small laser in 1 group.

2 erppc in another.

2 srm 4 in another.

now, you not only have big hard hitting weapons, you also have MG and a small laser, which, while the big guns are recycling, are causing internal crits on your enemy.

Your enemy meanwhile, has sacrificed these machine guns and slaser for a 2 ton bigger engine, 5 KPH.

as his XL engine explodes from your machine gun crits while he is still waiting for only his big guns to recycle, you can begin to see why machine guns have utility.

[Esplodin]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

they are not primary weapons. you build a mech, you have a little tonnage left over, you toss them on.

for example, 2 machine guns and a small laser in 1 group.

2 erppc in another.

2 srm 4 in another.

now, you not only have big hard hitting weapons, you also have MG and a small laser, which, while the big guns are recycling, are causing internal crits on your enemy.

Your enemy meanwhile, has sacrificed these machine guns and slaser for a 2 ton bigger engine, 5 KPH.

as his XL engine explodes from your machine gun crits while he is still waiting for only his big guns to recycle, you can begin to see why machine guns have utility.

OMG, what an awesome idea! I'll fit an ERPPC in my Spid. . . won't fit. Please try again Mr. Assault Pilot.

[Terror Teddy]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

they are not primary weapons. you build a mech, you have a little tonnage left over, you toss them on.

for example, 2 machine guns and a small laser in 1 group.

2 erppc in another.

2 srm 4 in another.

now, you not only have big hard hitting weapons, you also have MG and a small laser, which, while the big guns are recycling, are causing internal crits on your enemy.

Your enemy meanwhile, has sacrificed these machine guns and slaser for a 2 ton bigger engine, 5 KPH.

as his XL engine explodes from your machine gun crits while he is still waiting for only his big guns to recycle, you can begin to see why machine guns have utility.

I see....have you ever heard of the term LIGHT mech?

[Corvus Antaka]

Terror Teddy, on 11 March 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I see....have you ever heard of the term LIGHT mech?

No Teddy. Whats a light mech?

[Kingdok]

Esplodin, on 11 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

OMG, what an awesome idea! I'll fit an ERPPC in my Spid. . . won't fit. Please try again Mr. Assault Pilot.

what are you talking about? ERPPC is a holy terror mounted on a Spider. I don't have one myself, but a couple of mates run them regularly and grief the hell out of assault mechs. Spectating from Merz's patented Battle Spider is like watching Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon in first-person view. I can't drive like that, but it's hilarious to watch.

[Selfish]

Terror Teddy, on 11 March 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

The problem is that they WERE a primary weapon system.
That's the main issue.

That was the main argument in closed beta. The MWO devs ignored the TT relationship the MG had with the AC/2 in favor of creating a new weapon system. It seems they were wary of upcoming light mechs strapping the equivalent of 5 LL's to their 150kph, and even jump jet capable, chassis.

[Vassago Rain]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

they are not primary weapons. you build a mech, you have a little tonnage left over, you toss them on.

for example, 2 machine guns and a small laser in 1 group.

2 erppc in another.

2 srm 4 in another.

now, you not only have big hard hitting weapons, you also have MG and a small laser, which, while the big guns are recycling, are causing internal crits on your enemy.

Your enemy meanwhile, has sacrificed these machine guns and slaser for a 2 ton bigger engine, 5 KPH.

as his XL engine explodes from your machine gun crits while he is still waiting for only his big guns to recycle, you can begin to see why machine guns have utility.

But they are primary weapons. They do 2 damage per shot in the game PGI stole all the numbers from, you know. Same as an AC2, or a single SRM.