40 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Sybreed, on 11 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Nothing personnal, but from what I could get from your posts, you're pretty much the most notorious min/maxer on these forums and I don't want the game to degenerate into that...

Any build you deem ineffective, you call it out and say the pilots are potential idiots...

Truth hurts, doesn't it? But if more guns were good, more mechs would be good, even when not min-maxed. Who knows.

Maybe mech building could even be fun if you had actual options, instead of SRMs all day, every day.

[Sybreed]

btw I don't want to start an argument with you

You have your vision of the game and I have mine, I gotta accept people having different opinions

Well, going to the gym, later all

Vassago Rain, on 11 March 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Truth hurts, doesn't it? But if more guns were good, more mechs would be good, even when not min-maxed. Who knows.

Maybe mech building could even be fun if you had actual options, instead of SRMs all day, every day.

Truth hurts? I don't recall saying I was personally offended by you. I like my builds and they work, therefore I have no reason to feel insulted.

edit: It's actually that kind of attitude of yours that I find deplorable

Edited by Sybreed, 11 March 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Roland]

Vass may be kind of a jerkface, but generally what he says is correct in terms of weapon utility.

When he tells you that your build with LBX or Machine guns is trash, he's simply stating a fact. He's not saying to to hurt your feelings (although he may enjoy the fact that it will hurt your feelings).

If you are packing LBX or machine guns, then your build IS trash. Pretending like it's a good build doesn't make it so.. it just makes you less effective at killing other mechs.

The answer to these problems is to get those weapons changed into non-terrible weapons.. not to stick our heads in the sand and pretend like they are fine.

Generally, when you see someone packing a weapon like LBX or Machine guns, the pilot falls into one of a few categories:
1) They have no idea how the game works, and don't know any better.
2) They are testing some specific aspect of those weapons.
3) They are using terrible weapons, intentionally, purely for the lulz.

MOST of the time, it's option #1... The folks using those weapons are simply unaware of the game mechanics, to the extent that they don't realize they are using terrible weapons.

[General Taskeen]

Vassago Rain, on 11 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

What does that have to do with LBX being worthless in MWO? I want it to be good, so I have more guns to pick from.

Exactly.

Min/Maxing shows PGI exactly how certain weapons/equipment are completely dominate, while others remain in the trash heap. If the least used weapons/equipment were balanced better, there would be better variety on the field and in competitive gameplay. Same goes for the most used weapons, in order to have a closer, but not completely equal balance.

[Khobai]

Quote

The one problem with adding slug rounds to LBX is that the AC/10 will pretty much stop existing altogether...

Thats not a problem. In fact thats how it should be. The LB10X and UAC/10 should completely replace the AC/10 altogether.

[GrimDeath]

Simply add slug rounds to the LBX. And then do as TT did for the vanilla A/C's, add ammo types only useable by them. Namely Standard(slug), Armor-Piercing, Incendiary, Precision(TT gives a better to hit,N/A here. maybe in MWO a higher velocity).
Flechette rounds are useless here because of no infantry to shoot.

Edited by GrimDeath, 11 March 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Roland]

If you make the LBX10 function exactly as it is, but buff the damage per pellet to 1.5 or 2, you will see folks start using it.

And, at the same time, it'll continue to be slightly different than other weapons.

I'm not sure why folks seem to assume that the problem requires something other than this very simple solution.

[NonCedo]

I have been using the LBX ( sometimes with SRM) on some larger mechs to test its ability to fend off the circle of death light mechs. In those regards, it does a pretty good job of legging them during the twist blur. To go with that, bring back knockdowns in some form (or more collision damage), it makes better pilots.

And honestly, who doesnt like the sound of a shotgun now and then?

[Lootee]

Because if they can add slug ammo mode someone will have finally gotten it right.

And it'd be a pretty decent weapon. PPC dmg at PPC range but less heat and cluster mode as a bonus.

[Vassago Rain]

Roland, on 11 March 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

If you make the LBX10 function exactly as it is, but buff the damage per pellet to 1.5 or 2, you will see folks start using it.

And, at the same time, it'll continue to be slightly different than other weapons.

I'm not sure why folks seem to assume that the problem requires something other than this very simple solution.

I don't know, but I want them to stop with the crit-seeking, and just give the bad guns good damage.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 11 March 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Here are the solutions to the LB-X problem:

1 - Increase pellet damage (match LRMs, probably, since they have the same TT damage per projectile impact). This could include further buffing the critical damage potential per pellet.
2 - Allow select-fire of slug and cluster rounds (this maintains the cluster specialization close-in and for hitting stripped locations for extra critical damage while allowing the cannon to do actual damage to armor and to use its nominal range).
3 - Grant special munitions to standard ACs only (several exist in the timeline already, and if necessary more could be fudged in).

LRMs should have their damage reduced anyway (and their base spread could stand to be wider, making them a true AOE weapon), so if they were nerfed to roughly 1.6 per missile and LB-X pellets were buffed to 1.6 per pellet it'd make the gun far more viable.

Standard ACs should be inferior to LB-X ACs when it comes to the things that the LB-X was designed for, namely longer-ranged slugs and internal-destroying cluster rounds. Their advantage, as mentioned in the fluff for the Cataphract 4X with its stock AC5 build, should be in the ability to use special ammunition. Armor Piercing ammo is technically available already, though full production won't begin for a few years yet. It should do bonus damage against armor and standard damage against internals rather than through-armor critical hits based on RNG (keep the reduced ammo per ton to balance it). Caseless ammo could work too, if you fudged the timeline a bit. Double ammo capacity for a small chance to jam the gun like an Ultra AC. Tracer rounds could be made to transfer some heat to the target (they're likely WP rounds, so they'd be quite hot), plus they'd be fun to use on night maps. Precision rounds would require a bunch of timeline fudging, but make them lock-on like guided missiles (with only slight course correction available, so no crazy mid-air turns).

TLDR - Special ammo for standard ACs should be entirely doable and would obviate all concerns about LB-X slugs making standard ACs obsolete, plus LB-X cluster ammo needs to match (nerfed) LRMs for damage per projectile.

[Sybreed]

Roland, on 11 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Vass may be kind of a jerkface, but generally what he says is correct in terms of weapon utility.

When he tells you that your build with LBX or Machine guns is trash, he's simply stating a fact. He's not saying to to hurt your feelings (although he may enjoy the fact that it will hurt your feelings).

If you are packing LBX or machine guns, then your build IS trash. Pretending like it's a good build doesn't make it so.. it just makes you less effective at killing other mechs.

The answer to these problems is to get those weapons changed into non-terrible weapons.. not to stick our heads in the sand and pretend like they are fine.

Generally, when you see someone packing a weapon like LBX or Machine guns, the pilot falls into one of a few categories:
1) They have no idea how the game works, and don't know any better.
2) They are testing some specific aspect of those weapons.
3) They are using terrible weapons, intentionally, purely for the lulz.

MOST of the time, it's option #1... The folks using those weapons are simply unaware of the game mechanics, to the extent that they don't realize they are using terrible weapons.

that's something I actually agree with. I often /facepalm when I see a Centurion or hunchback with 2 machine guns on them. What you said actually makes a lot of sense and that's the direction I wish the game would take.

What I don't agree with Vass is that some weapons "should" be useless by definition since they were useless in TT. Why have them in the first place then?

In short, I do believe there are some builds that are very bad, but I'm also against min-maxing. I want everything weapon to have their use, I want min-maxing gone by the simple fact that all weapons are viable.

Vassago Rain, on 11 March 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I don't know, but I want them to stop with the crit-seeking, and just give the bad guns good damage.

agreed, the crit-seeking wasn't the solution

[Vassago Rain]

Sybreed, on 11 March 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

that's something I actually agree with. I often /facepalm when I see a Centurion or hunchback with 2 machine guns on them. What you said actually makes a lot of sense and that's the direction I wish the game would take.

What I don't agree with Vass is that some weapons "should" be useless by definition since they were useless in TT. Why have them in the first place then?

In short, I do believe there are some builds that are very bad, but I'm also against min-maxing. I want everything weapon to have their use, I want min-maxing gone by the simple fact that all weapons are viable.


agreed, the crit-seeking wasn't the solution

Well, that's the thing. They were a bad idea to being with, which is why all guns that came after had something good about them. LBX is really, really good when armor's down. UACs let you put A LOT of damage to ruin armor. RACs lets you chew up lighter mechs.

I don't know why they ported over the bad ACs, brah. No idea. The only reason they're in the TT is to act as legacy support for really old mechs that happen to mount them. If they want ACs to be useful in this game, they're gonna have to timeskip for special ammo, OR make them 'better.' What if their projectiles move faster than UAC and LBX? Or they get a significant increase in ammo per ton?

Simple things like that. The rate we're going, even if they don't make LBX useful, the clan UACs will complete obsolete all the normal ACs. The IS UAC5 in fact has already done this.

[SpiralRazor]

FupDup, on 11 March 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

The one problem with adding slug rounds to LBX is that the AC/10 will pretty much stop existing altogether...although then again, virtually nobody uses AC/10s anyways. I can almost guarantee that virtually all LBX users will just load up on slug ammo and never equip scattershot rounds.

And it should...the new autocannons were meant to replace the old ones.... the old ones were ONLY used on poor outfits, or those companies that simply could not get access to any better tech.

[Sheraf]

FupDup, on 11 March 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

The one problem with adding slug rounds to LBX is that the AC/10 will pretty much stop existing altogether...although then again, virtually nobody uses AC/10s anyways. I can almost guarantee that virtually all LBX users will just load up on slug ammo and never equip scattershot rounds.

I think we can give LB X10 slug but make it cooldown longer than the AC 10 when firing slug, cause it is multi purpose after all. That way, the AC 10 is still viable.

[Lootee]

Sheraf, on 11 March 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I think we can give LB X10 slug but make it cooldown longer than the AC 10 when firing slug, cause it is multi purpose after all. That way, the AC 10 is still viable.

Probably no need to even do that. If they add all the special munitions types, Armor Piercing will be pretty damn good. On an AC/10 That's a possible 10-30 pts of dmg hitting an internal component through armor.

That's enough to set off any ammo, blow up a gauss rifle, ruin an AC/20, destroy an ECM. And if engine criticals ever get fixed to knock out mechs when you accumulate 3 of them, it'll do a remarkable job of that too.

[Ralgas]

Given we already have both i don't think making the lbx the "goto" and forgetting the ac/10 as a bad joke is the answer. A solution i'd put forward would be as follows

ac/5 &ac/10 shed weight or reload boost to make them more attractive

lbx re-range to 270m effective (remembering that gives it an 810m max) , up dam to 1.6 per pellet. Low (sub 10%) chance of knockdown once collisions are reintroduced. Drop the crit seeking bonus it has now

Keep in mind whatever the final config is, it needs to be balanced around boating 2-3 (in a k2-cataphract) and how it would be complimented by 3 srm (a dd-c brawler)

Edited by Ralgas, 11 March 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Sybreed]

Ralgas, on 11 March 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Given we already have both i don't think making the lbx the "goto" and forgetting the ac/10 as a bad joke is the answer. A solution i'd put forward would be as follows

ac/5 &ac/10 shed weight or reload boost to make them more attractive

lbx re-range to 270m effective (remembering that gives it an 810m max) , up dam to 1.6 per pellet. Low (sub 10%) chance of knockdown once collisions are reintroduced. Drop the crit seeking bonus it has now

Keep in mind whatever the final config is, it needs to be balanced around boating 2-3 (in a k2-cataphract) and how it would be complimented by 3 srm (a dd-c brawler)

devs said many times they don't want to introduce knockdowns by weapons, so you can take that out of the equation.

[Headlessnewt]

Quick fix for the LBX:

CUT THE CBILL COST BY 25%.

More people would actually buy them to try them out and would use them once and realize they're not very good (or just draw their own conclusions and use them), and there will be more squeaky wheels.

[Karr285]

FupDup, on 11 March 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

The one problem with adding slug rounds to LBX is that the AC/10 will pretty much stop existing altogether...although then again, virtually nobody uses AC/10s anyways. I can almost guarantee that virtually all LBX users will just load up on slug ammo and never equip scattershot rounds.

not necessarily, all you would have to do is make a ammo Slot that is 2 tons and 2 slots and have it contain 1 ton cluster 1 ton slug. So your options are 1 ton cluster or 1 ton cluster + 1 ton slug no 1 ton of pure slug ammo available
now there is 0 way it can be better than the AC/10