48 replies to this topic

[Visyac Cephias]

Ok, so there is a lot of hype about how the Clans are going to swoop out of the sky on the wings of Community warfare, laying waste to everything before them in an unstoppable tsunami that leaves only the lucky and the dead to tell of their passage.

What I want to know is how a Clan planetary invasion works.

Is it just like I'd imagine a mech invasion to go?
Is the trial of Possession (Sarna!) involved, or is that just between Clans?
What changes do the Clans make to the planet once they are in possession of it?
Is there a standard occupying force, or do they just blow alot of stuff up?
Do they leave mech garrisons behind? Elementals?
What sort of differences are there between the individual Clans and their conduct to the planets citizens?

Really, I'm looking for a general idea of what a local populace could expect to deal with. What are the odds of a planet successfully rebelling against a clan occupation, if they had the proper communications network and access to relevant resources?

Edit: To clarify, I am asking about the lore, not CW. Asking for clarification on things we know nothing about would be stupid.

Edited by Visyac Cephias, 11 March 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[Egomane]

We do not know anything about that, as this will most likely be part of community warfare, coming later this year.

Edited by Egomane, 11 March 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Visyac Cephias, on 11 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

"How Does Planetary Invasion Work?"

.
It doesn't, everything is pure "CONJECTURE" at the moment, and I wouldn't waste anymore time contemplating the issue.
.
The Bottom Line is this, it was a mistake to even announce any sort of idea of a "TIMELINE", it has only created far more problems than it was intended to solve...
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No word of Community Warfare yet, and absolutely nothing said about Clan Tech, or Mechs, and don't hold your breath for any.

Edited by Odins Fist, 11 March 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Visyac Cephias, on 11 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Ok, so there is a lot of hype about how the Clans are going to swoop out of the sky on the wings of Community warfare, laying waste to everything before them in an unstoppable tsunami that leaves only the lucky and the dead to tell of their passage.

What I want to know is how a Clan planetary invasion works.

The BT universe works with Fasanomics, it only takes a small force to conquer a entire planet. It only took 4 mechs to conquer Trellwan in Decision at Thunder Rift.

Quote

Is it just like I'd imagine a mech invasion to go?

Depends on the situation.

Quote

Is the trial of Possession (Sarna!) involved, or is that just between Clans?

The Clans announce that they will invade the planet by declaring a trial of possesion.
Amongst the Clans they usually discuss what forces will be used and where they will fight for the planet.

The Inner Sphere powers are not familiar with Clan customs and will often foolishly insult the Clan commanders or "bid" all their forces in the fight. This often results in large Clan groups destroying every opponent in sight.

Quote

What changes do the Clans make to the planet once they are in possession of it?

The occupied population gets adopted into the Clans and their caste system. They have less liberties then before, this could cause riots and such. Although some backwater planets like the ones in the periphery actually benefitted from being invaded and enjoying a higher quality of living then they did before.

Quote

Is there a standard occupying force, or do they just blow alot of stuff up?

There are garrison forces consisting of guys who aren't really frontline material (some of them are considered too old).

Quote

Do they leave mech garrisons behind? Elementals?

Mech types ranging from capture IS machines, to high end Star League models to second line Clan mechs. Though they do have regular infantry and such. Elementals are mostly frontline troops.

Quote

What sort of differences are there between the individual Clans and their conduct to the planets citizens?

By Clan:
Clan Wolf: Nice at first, but turned strict after the Refusal War
Clan Ghost Bear: Neutral at first, but got along so well that they merged into one true nation
Clan Jade Falcon: Strict mixed with neutral
Clan Smoke Jaguar: Incredibly harsh
Clan Nova Cat: Varies from nice to neutral
Clan Steel Viper: Strict

Quote

Really, I'm looking for a general idea of what a local populace could expect to deal with. What are the odds of a planet successfully rebelling against a clan occupation, if they had the proper communications network and access to relevant resources?

There have never been any successful rebellions. The most extreme case was Turtlebay when Clan Smoke Jaguar destroyed a city from orbit .

Contrast this to Clan Jade Falcon, Aidan Pryde allowed himself to be captured to be by rebelling forces who were willing to blow up themselves and their children, just to try and reason with them. This didn't work out so his daughter went in to rescue him and the kids.

Edited by Stormwolf, 11 March 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Again... Nothing has been announced... Conjecture... And the only thing we have to base any reply on is the BT/MW Lore which the DEVS said they wouldn't be strickly sticking to in the first place..
.
Conclusion: Wait for announcements and don't let hardcore fans get your hopes up.

Edited by Odins Fist, 11 March 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Odins Fist, on 11 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Again... Nothing has been announced... Conjecture... And the only thing we have to base any reply on is the BT/MW Lore which the DEVS said they wouldn't be strickly sticking to in the first place..
.
Conclusion: Wait for announcements and don't let hardcore fans get your hopes up.

I don't think that he's asking about game mechanics when he's asking about populations and how Clans treat them.

[Damion Wolf]

Odins Fist, on 11 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Look at me! I am the voice of reason here. Not only that but I should be given praise and attention for stating the obvious.

I'm going to have to agree with Stormie, here. He's talking about established BT canon fluff, not game mechanics.

Edited by Damion Wolf, 11 March 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Visyac Cephias]

Ok. So the Clans implement a social change once they have control How do they change out leaders, just kill them and replace them with puppets, or is there a
more "elegant" solution they use

Also, how large of an army is it feasible for the Clans to be fielding. I
envision that controlling even five planets the size of Earth as a logistical
nightmare, not to mention the raw manpower needed, how are these obstacles
overcome?

[AlexEss]

Again it depends on what clan take control.

Clan Wolf and Clan Ghost Bear did work with the local government as long as they "behaved" simply adding another layer of command above the old one. It seems they try to keep the old chain of command intact to easy the transition in to clan life as people are more inclined to listen to people they trust and know. But any sign of unrest introduces martial law of the harsher variety.

Jade Falcon seems to flip/flop depending on who write them, but they have a very strict adherence to the code of the clans. Much more so then CGB and CW so one would guess that they strike down a lot harsher on people breaking traditions and acting out.

CSJ are borderline psychopaths due to their role as the "villain" in many stories treating the people of the IS as mere cattle that need to be broken and enslaved. Very little is known of how they handle the day to day governing of planets but it is most likley a fairly harsh life with no regard to the previous chain of command.

Nova Cats... Who knows they have had little to none exposiur in the lore but they rely on visions so potentially they could be the friendliest or the most tyrannical depending on what they ahev seen.

All clans used battle challenges when they invaded the IS but quickly learned that the IS did not know (and later on abused) the rituals of this ceremony.

As for how large force that is needed to keep a planet.. Well in the lore a force as small as 10-20 mechs can hold a full planet but it depends on how well the planet have been "pacified". Most of the work would fall to freebirth PBI or older warriors i would guess, also some clans took a amount of bondsmen who once "turned" could help to oversee guarding the planet.

Edited by AlexEss, 13 March 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[Bravado]

Easy. Drop a couple of RCTs on it. Nothing fancy. Just 3 to 8 Regiments of Battlemechs, at least 9 Armor, 15 Regiments of Infantry (Mininum) plus Support Troops like Artillery and Aerospace Assets. Then you smash everything that doesn't get Off-Planet by the Count of three and you're done.
In other Words: In the AFFS Strategy-Doctrin a State of too many Troops to achieve an Objective is not defined.

Edited by Bravado, 13 March 2013 - 04:19 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Damion Wolf, on 11 March 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

He's talking about established BT canon fluff, not game mechanics.

.
MWO is "NOT" BattleTech.... Nice putting up a quote that I didn't say...
Bite the curb...

[Stormwolf]

Odins Fist, on 14 March 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

.
MWO is "NOT" BattleTech.... Nice putting up a quote that I didn't say...
Bite the curb...

MWO is a Battletech spin off product, thank you for playing.

[Commander Kobold]

I don't care how long it takes as long as I eventually get my Mad Dog ._.
also the lore is pretty nifty, me gusta

Edited by Omni 13, 15 March 2013 - 01:49 AM.

[Koshirou]

Visyac Cephias, on 11 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Edit: To clarify, I am asking about the lore, not CW.

In the lore, ~30 BattleMechs land on a planet with billions of inhabitants, duke it out with similarly miniscule defending forces which are the only military forces said billions have and then the planet magically changes hands after less than a week.

Or in other words, the lore doesn't make a lick of sense, and as FASA fleshed out the universe, it made less and less. Basically, this and this. Bigtime.

Edited by Koshirou, 15 March 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[EarlGrey83]

Koshirou, on 15 March 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

In the lore, ~30 BattleMechs land on a planet with billions of inhabitants, duke it out with similarly miniscule defending forces which are the only military forces said billions have and then the planet magically changes hands after less than a week.

Or in other words, the lore doesn't make a lick of sense, and as FASA fleshed out the universe, it made less and less. Basically, this and this. Bigtime.

Many Planets in the IS actually have a very small population, one capital city and some stuff around is quite normal for not core planets. Makes sence though, just think about 100.000 setlers that live by industry level standards, meaning birth per couple of around 2 children, those populations never grow.

Its very easy to hold such worlds with only a small force.

Core worlds are garnisoned by larger forces, again its easy if you destoy all military forces first and hold the capital and all politicans captive. If that doesnt work, yeah, orbital bombartment.


A lot of stuff in the BT universe makes sence if you don´t think every planet would be as earth is today. In the IS there are no planets with spread out forces, no gps for long range fire against mechs, no standard air forces due to different gravity and air density.

[Koshirou]

EarlGrey83, on 15 March 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Many Planets in the IS actually have a very small population, one capital city and some stuff around is quite normal for not core planets. Makes sence though, just think about 100.000 setlers that live by industry level standards, meaning birth per couple of around 2 children, those populations never grow.

That may be your headcanon, and it would make a lot more sense than the official version, but unfortunately, FASA and its successor companies had different ideas. The official information from various sourcebooks indicates an average population of ~3 billion people per world.

If "many" planets, say two thirds, had comparably negligible populations (say below 10 million), then the remaining third would have an average population of ~9 billion. That, by the way, also puts to rest any idea that these planets could somehow be so technologically primitive that they could not produce any halfway modern weapons; even with perfectly earthlike conditions, you cannot feed such a population without at least 20th century level technology. And many planets in the BTU do not have perfectly earthlike conditions.

The writers of the BattleTech universe simply had no sense of scale whatsoever, and that's why they regularly treated a planet as if it was a small town plus outskirts.

I can only reiterate how I would fix that:
- Retcon dramatically reduced overall populations. (By a factor of ~20 at least, better ~50)
- Reimagine planetary invasions as long, bloody, time-consuming affairs involving large amounts of conventional forces, for which BattleMechs provide the elite spearhead units.

Edited by Koshirou, 15 March 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[xxREVxx]

Stormwolf, on 11 March 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

By Clan:
Clan Wolf: Nice at first, but turned strict after the Refusal War
Clan Ghost Bear: Neutral at first, but got along so well that they merged into one true nation
Clan Jade Falcon: Strict mixed with neutral
Clan Smoke Jaguar: Incredibly harsh
Clan Nova Cat: Varies from nice to neutral
Clan Steel Viper: Strict

There have never been any successful rebellions. The most extreme case was Turtlebay when Clan Smoke Jaguar destroyed a city from orbit .

How dare you, Storm! We would never mistreat the denizens of any society we grind into the...ahem...I meant to say liberate.


Oh and that whole Turtle Bay thing...they blew themselves up by accident.

[Odins Fist]

Stormwolf, on 15 March 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

MWO is a Battletech spin off product, thank you for playing.

.
It is a "SPINOFF" one that the devs themselves said wouldn't be strictly canon so any ideas about CW or planetary invasions is pure conjecture as it would relate to implementation for MWO at this point, there are lots of sources you can look up on Sarna.net if you have questions about BattleTech, but it doesn't look like MWO will be anything more than a F2P game very loosely based on a few aspects of BatteTech, R.I.P..
.
Like I said MWO is not BattleTech, just a F2P game trying to capitalize on what has been nothing more than an obscure clique in the online gaming community for years and years... R.I.P.
.
Still hoping for a good game, kinda tired of a handful of maps, and team death match...

Edited by Odins Fist, 15 March 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Odins Fist, on 15 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

.
It is a "SPINOFF" one that the devs themselves said wouldn't be strictly canon so any ideas about CW or planetary invasions is pure conjecture as it would relate to implementation for MWO at this point, there are lots of sources you can look up on Sarna.net if you have questions about BattleTech, but it doesn't look like MWO will be anything more than a F2P game very loosely based on a few aspects of BatteTech, R.I.P..
.
Like I said MWO is not BattleTech, just a F2P game trying to capitalize on what has been nothing more than an obscure clique in the online gaming community for years and years... R.I.P.
.
Still hoping for a good game, kinda tired of a handful of maps, and team death match...

[Bravado]

Koshirou, on 15 March 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

That may be your headcanon, and it would make a lot more sense than the official version, but unfortunately, FASA and its successor companies had different ideas. The official information from various sourcebooks indicates an average population of ~3 billion people per world.

If "many" planets, say two thirds, had comparably negligible populations (say below 10 million), then the remaining third would have an average population of ~9 billion. That, by the way, also puts to rest any idea that these planets could somehow be so technologically primitive that they could not produce any halfway modern weapons; even with perfectly earthlike conditions, you cannot feed such a population without at least 20th century level technology. And many planets in the BTU do not have perfectly earthlike conditions.

The writers of the BattleTech universe simply had no sense of scale whatsoever, and that's why they regularly treated a planet as if it was a small town plus outskirts.

I can only reiterate how I would fix that:
- Retcon dramatically reduced overall populations. (By a factor of ~20 at least, better ~50)
- Reimagine planetary invasions as long, bloody, time-consuming affairs involving large amounts of conventional forces, for which BattleMechs provide the elite spearhead units.

FASA was always a little fuzzy with the Population Numbers. But you have to keep some Factors in Mind:

• The size of the Garrison force doesn't have to correlate with the Size of the Population. By the year 3050 the Mech is still largely considered Lostech and as such very limited in it's Deployment. Most Defense is carried out by small Milita Forces that consist of a few Mechs and a much larger Force of Infantry and Armored Troops. Larger Mech Forces are posted only on Key Worlds.
  
• The First Planets that had been Invaded by the Clans where on the Periphery. Most of them had no Strategic Value like Factories or Raw Materials. Besides, they didn`t invade along the Borders between the Sucessor States but instead from beyound the Periphery where the Worlds are less fortified. This would make a smaller Invasion Force more likely. In comparision to that, the Battle of Luthien was a much larger Battle with at Least 10 Regiments of Mechs defending the Planet.
  
• It's a Game set a 1,000 years in the Future with Giant Robots duking it out and Humans are artificially born in an "Iron Womb". I guess realism wasn`t that high on the Priority List.

Edited by Bravado, 15 March 2013 - 01:12 PM.