149 replies to this topic

[Critical Fumble]

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

To clarify: People that can barely play the game shouldn't offer opinions on game balance.

How do you objectively analyze that? Elo? Don't make me laugh.

Elo is an improvement over nothing, but all it currently does is measure the success of a player and dump them with equally successful players. If there's a situation where a mech is just better than others in its weight class, people who use that would rise relative to those who don't, regardless of skill level.

[Darkfire66]

Critical Fumble, on 12 March 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

How do you objectively analyze that? Elo? Don't make me laugh.

Elo is an improvement over nothing, but all it currently does is measure the success of a player and dump them with equally successful players. If there's a situation where a mech is just better than others in its weight class, people who use that would rise relative to those who don't, regardless of skill level.

There is a reason all you see are Raven 3L's. You can't objectively analyze skill in the type of matches MWO has. I would like to see matches balanced on tonnage more often, it is terrible running into a team of 4 D-DC's and 4 raven 3L's.

[Thirdstar]

Harmin, on 11 March 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Because without it there'd be no need to even remotely develop any kind of tactics facility in those "go kill" lizard brains.

Hogwash.

There's nothing 'tacticool' about outfitting a lance of fast light mechs with cap modules and ending the game.

[Darkfire66]

Thirdstar, on 12 March 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Hogwash.

There's nothing 'tacticool' about outfitting a lance of fast light mechs with cap modules and ending the game.

There is, though. You are attacking the objective and that is an effective way to do that. You can scout to counter it, and eat up lights in a fight.

[KinLuu]

The rules in eloland are simple.

A win is a win and stays a win.

[Exoth3rmic]

Tell you what. If you can take a base in shogun with no units lost, credit to you. Also: BORING.

In MWO its quite possible to take a base with all 8 opposing mechs being out of position. And what happens when the base is capped?

Magically all mechs on the map become incapacitated and that's GG. Well then. That's BORING (and unrealistic).

I would love for the cap timer to be massively increased to allow a reaction from slower mechs and/or a requirement to "extract" yourself from the map afterwards (you can retreat in shogun too, can't you).

In either way - the most unsatisfying games I have involve assault mode with base caps.

[Corvus Antaka]

Good post. The current assault mode is fantastic, it is super simple and it works brilliantly.

[WolvesX]

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

I understand that getting capped isn't a fun way to lose.

That being said, I find a lot of people on here, and in game, complaining about it after moving to a great defensive position with all of their mechs and camping there. In Shogun 2, matches could literally take 30 minutes of people hiding in the woods and refusing to maneuver to avoid giving up their superior position.

Tactically, that is sound, and realistic.

From a gameplay perspective, that is wicked boring.

Just saying: If you are playing assault, either defend your base, or take the fight to them.

Don't go to upper city in river, then complain about your defenseless base being taken.

Use scouts so you don't get cave rushed...and start capping.

Nothing will get a dug in team into a fight faster than 4 mechs standing on their base.

Simply the truth!

I was also a compedative player in S2, (famous for KOTETZU spam, 1 League), and camping on a cornor of a mwp is just boring...

Edited by WolvesX, 12 March 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

What the f*ck is Shogun 2?

[Spawnsalot]

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

To clarify: People that can barely play the game shouldn't offer opinions on game balance.

So they should listen to and balance the game around people who barely fire their weapons?

Wat.

Also, holy moly! 6 pages in and no one has wheeled out Sun Tzu yet? I'm impressed, especially given the original post...

I'm also seeing distinctly less "I play to win, even in public matches because a win is a win and it looks nice in my stats and these stats are fun to me." and "Hurr durr, I do it to troll people etc. etc." Is everyone on holiday or something?

[Training Instructor]

I only return to base if I can be reasonably sure I'm a mech that can kill the 1-3 mechs there. When I'm pugging, not going to do that alone while the rest of the team mills about in the middle of the map.

[Joseph Mallan]

SpiralRazor, on 11 March 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

getting capped is dumb..or capping for that matter. Its not worth the load in time to gain 200 xp and 30k cbills, and thats a fact

So when Betty starts telling you, "Your stuff is being taken." You go back to base to stop the cap right? Cause now you know exactly where your enemy is. So you have the fight you were asking for.

[jakucha]

I still love using Kishio ninja in Shogun 2 multiplayer even though they're not always viable.

[VonRunnegen]

Hmmm.

Played a game on Caustic (in a 65kph heavy) and realised it was a case of we'd gone round one way, them the other. Due to our scouts actually scouting we knew in time that I could turn back and get to my base before the enemy arrived (I'd not gone far yet being pretty slow and had been a little delayed setting off playing with some setup stuff) while some of our guys went on to cap them. I then played hide-and-seek at our base, stalling their cap, getting us a solid win. No kills on either side, I only did about 150 dmg (took quite a bit more but I was rather outnumbered) and had a good fun game. I don't know if the other team had as much fun, couldn't possibly say, but in a team game where the aim is to win I felt it worked just fine. The existence of cap points is one of the few things that forces teams to not all just stand on top of each other and adds quite a bit.

I've similarly been alerted to fast lights running to cap in Alpine and fallen back into the buildings at our base, then had a fun engagement with two lights vs me in a heavy that went on for quite some time, in this case ending by killing all the enemies as my team won the mass fight then fell back to help me out. I'd like to think that the 1 man advantage helped our team to win, while also stopping them from capping. The risk in both cases is poor scouting can lead to me being out of position in a slow mech, so I'd say in general the role I fulfilled would be better met by a medium or faster heavy but it still is adding an element to the game.

[Fooooo]

Training Instructor, on 12 March 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

I only return to base if I can be reasonably sure I'm a mech that can kill the 1-3 mechs there. When I'm pugging, not going to do that alone while the rest of the team mills about in the middle of the map.

I'd say this is a factor for most, and the reason you see most running for the enemy cap once they see their own being capped.

If your the lone guy running back to stand on the cap and try and slow them, you are more than likely to find death awaiting you.....at least on any map other than alpine, or if there is only 1 or 2 enemys left.

Much like the other night when I noted to my team their whole team was going lower (we had airport spawn)......our team went upper, and when I again noted they look like they rushing cap....nobody came back at all.

They rushed the enemy base knowing full well they won't get there in time.

So I did all I could and ran to our cap to try and slow theirs, hoping there was only 1 or 2 there atm....., there was 6 of them.

Its not always like this, but thats the way pub matches are sometimes as nobody can 100% rely on another.

Edited by Fooooo, 12 March 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[Yankee77]

Shepherd, on 11 March 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

The capture thing is important because it forces diversity. In a straight Team Deathmatch mode only the mechs that are the best killers are worth taking. The player base will trend towards the Assault class. The usefulness of Medium mechs will completely evaporate, and heavies will be marginalized unless they have some unique and powerful characteristic (K2 for example). Gameplay will devolve similarly to how the OP describes - good teams will find an advantageous position and simply will not move.

But since capture is a real threat, you need some faster mechs, and you need some mechs to counter those faster mechs. You can take and hold a great position, but you must actively scout to be sure you're not getting capped. Commanders need to balance what they're doing with the very real possibility of losing to a cap.

It's boring when a team rushes to capture right away. But the game would also be boring if the possibility of a capture was removed entirely.

Well said, this is pretty much why base cap remains in assault.

It DOES add tactical depth, in that it makes stomping forward in a blob of assaults a risky maneuver. It gives room for flankers, or scouts, to threaten the enemy base. And that's a good thing.

It'll get even better once tonnage limits are added.

[Tice Daurus]

Alright...my two cents...

I love to base cap. Why? Because people's tears are so delicious.

Seriously though...the real reason? Because once RnR comes back into play, the object of the game is to WIN. With the least amount of damage.

The Art of War by Sun-Tzu says (paraphrasing here) is about winning the battle with the least amount of casualties, and winning in the best way possible. If this means I can win by sneaking around and capping your base quickly before a shot is even fired, fantastic. As my enemy, you need to be prepared to deal with any and all eventual possibilities. If this means keep a Heavy mech or an Assault mech on the base to keep a Light from capping the base as a "goalie", so be it. It's my job to win at all costs against the enemy.

And please read the terms of how you win in the Assault rules of how to win:

-Cap the enemy's base
-Destroy all enemy mechs.

(There is a third cheesier way to win and that's kill more mechs than the enemy team has and then hide or avoid combat so you have the advantage before the 15:00 timer runs out so say your ahead by 1 mech, you win that way too...)

But notice the order it comes in. Capping an enemy base is FIRST. FIRST. Let me say that one more time...FIRST. My goal is to win by any means necessary. Would I rather destroy you outright? Yes. But if I can win via base cap, that's fine too.

The bottom line is for right now, ASSAULT matches mean there is base capping. There will be other modes in the future from PGI that will be all out destruction matches like Team DeathMatch or Free-For-All Solo aka Kill of the Hill matches, etc...and stuff like that will be coming SOONtm. But for now, people that b*tch about "You base cappin' wussies!" or cry delicious tears about them losing because I was smarter and decided to cap their base before they could get back and stop the cap...make me giggle with glee and happiness because I'm smarter than the average bear and they are not.

For right now...you all need to deal with it, and wait for new modes to come out. Until then, stop the crying and start using your brain for something other that sits inside of your head as a paperweight.

Edited by Tice Daurus, 12 March 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Hamm3r]

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

I've had a little trouble understanding some of your sentence structure so I pretty much just started ignoring what you are saying and assumed that since you are bad at this game, your opinion is irrelevant.
TLDR: Bad players opinions don't count.

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

• 
  
  
  
  
  
  It has to be. All game balance needs to be tuned around top level play. I normally run in at least a 4 man group. I do pug, mainly to grind out masteries on new frames. ELO will eventually segregate better players up anyway.
  
  I imagine that means I probably won't be seeing you in game.
  
  = (

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

Pretty much. Nothing wrong with just playing for fun. But games also need to be balanced top down from the best players.



You are wrong, sir.

Google says that is what tactics are.

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

If you are not balancing the need to defend your base, attack their base, and kill as many enemies as possible, you are a bad player.

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Given an option, I will always fight. I want cbills.

Ok, sounds good, but then.....

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

I started capping hoping someone would come to fight me, and no one did.

So if that were true...why didn't you go looking for a fight if that's what you wanted???

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Feel free to ignore my posts. If you have something to contribute to the discussion, feel free to do so. Otherwise, there are plenty of other threads for you to browse.

Please don't feed the trolls.



Like I said before, I agree that Capping is a valid win, HOWEVER, when a group of lights with Cap modules base rush and the game is over in 2 mins or less with almost no shots fired....that's not much fun for anybody, I have won AND lost that way, it sucks....plain and simple. A valid win but a very CHEEP, lame win.

Now if it comes after a hard fight, and somebody or a couple of people broke off and got there and nobody came to challenge them, that's another story.

Edited by Hamm3r, 12 March 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Esplodin]

Shumabot, on 11 March 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Having two game ending capture points in a game where most players are in mechs that are slow and ungainly is asinine.

Timing of the match and capture point countdowns on Alpine need to be balanced for the bigger map. However, maybe the point was to get the playerbase into something other then an Assault with a standard 100 engine with all hard points and critical slots bristling with pew pew? Assaults in universe are rare, and the mediums rule the battlefield. It is extremely immersion breaking with 4 Assaults on the team, and the rest broken up between heavies and lights. Assaults took over because repair and rearm was taken out (for good reasons). I don't find that to be a good thing for game balance.

Homeless Bill, on 11 March 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

I play this game to kill big, angry robots with my big, angry robot. To me, capture objectives only impede the primary focus of this game. Call me crazy, but standing next to someone's spawn point is ****-boring in my eyes.

They already have that game.

Edited by Esplodin, 12 March 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[bigrigross]

They need to give the base a health meter. Meaning that even if a light mech gets to the other person base, their weapons will limit them on how fast they can destroy the base and win the game. It adds depth and also gives meaning to the match. I dont understand how standing there would win a game......