149 replies to this topic

[Spawnsalot]

Tice Daurus, on 12 March 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Snip...

the object of the game is to WIN.

Snip...

The Art of War by Sun-Tzu says

Snip...

It's my job to win at all costs against the enemy.

Snip...

But for now, people that b*tch about "You base cappin' wussies!" or cry delicious tears about them losing because I was smarter and decided to cap their base before they could get back and stop the cap

Ha! I knew it couldn't last...

I'm not sure if you read my earlier post and you're trying to wind me up or if your're serious

Btw, you aren't smarter than everyone else for base capping, the other 15 people on the server just don't care, they'd much rather get some fighting done than haul *** away from the main fight just as it's all kicking off to shoo a smug 3L away from their magic square. It's not tearful crying, it's exasperated sighing.

Oh and

Quote

And please read the terms of how you win in the Assault rules of how to win:

-Cap the enemy's base
-Destroy all enemy mechs.

But notice the order it comes in. Capping an enemy base is FIRST. FIRST. Let me say that one more time...FIRST.

[Darkfire66]

Hamm3r, on 12 March 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

So if that were true...why didn't you go looking for a fight if that's what you wanted???

SImply, that is a great way of throwing down the gauntlet.

I am taking your base. You have 2 minutes to respond to my challenge, or you lose.

Playing a medium, I will lose to 2 3L's. I can't outrun them, I can't outgun them. If they enemy team is camped out with 2 assaults, and 2 heavies, I am not attacking them directly by myself.

[KhanCipher]

Darkfire66 said:

random stuff about capping is a "valid tactic"

i don't get why people come on here claiming to have competive experance in another game trying to defend a capping mechanic that's half-baked, under-done, and all around a bad idea taking into consideration that WoT does the capping mechanic so much better.

what i'm saying is that you shouldn't defend a mechanic where the only real way to defend it is camp your base leaving your enemy lots of room to flank, shoot, snipe, harass, and do it from behind to you.

also when i play in pug/4-man, i just want to shoot stompy robot thingys, and not be interupted by some guy thinking he's cool with his RVN-3L cap rushing stompy robot thingy. If i want tactical depth, i'll go play in 8-mans...

Esplodin, on 12 March 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Timing of the match and capture point countdowns on Alpine need to be balanced for the bigger map. However, maybe the point was to get the playerbase into something other then an Assault with a standard 100 engine with all hard points and critical slots bristling with pew pew?

my brawler STK-3F has something to say about the size of alpine... it doesn'thinder it at all,it just takes a little longer for me to wreak face, but who cares as long as i win and make 2+ kills a match, and someguy who thinks he's cool with his RVN-3L cap rushing doesn't interupt my fun stuffz

Esplodin, on 12 March 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Assaults in universe are rare, and the mediums rule the battlefield. It is extremely immersion breaking with 4 Assaults on the team, and the rest broken up between heavies and lights.

building a game around a universe does not translate into any F2P competitive game at all... unless you build the universe around the game, and not the game around the universe (which MWO falls into the latter)

[Thirdstar]

Darkfire66, on 12 March 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

SImply, that is a great way of throwing down the gauntlet.
.

You know what's a better way? Shooting a mech in the face. You actually seem afraid of combat.

[Hamm3r]

Darkfire66, on 12 March 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

SImply, that is a great way of throwing down the gauntlet.

I am taking your base. You have 2 minutes to respond to my challenge, or you lose.

Playing a medium, I will lose to 2 3L's. I can't outrun them, I can't outgun them. If they enemy team is camped out with 2 assaults, and 2 heavies, I am not attacking them directly by myself.

So what your saying is that you dont actually want a FIGHT, you just want an easy kill, make them come to you, all the reward without any of the effort....now I get it, thanks for clearing that up.

Edited by Hamm3r, 12 March 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[Adrian Steel]

Hamm3r, on 12 March 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

So what your saying is that you dont actually want a FIGHT, you just want an easy kill, make them come to you, all the reward without any of the effort....now I get it, thanks for clearing that up.

Or maybe he doesn't want to get bent over when he's in a medium and he finds out he's the lightest mech in the entire match.

Think about that when you're tubbing around in your 100 tonner.

You already have Atlas Warrior Online. Why are you guys asking for Team Deathmatch? They're synonymous.

Most Mechwarrior 4 Servers devolved into Daishi on Daishi on Daishi on Daishi on Daishi deathmatches. Are you serious?

Edited by Adrian Steel, 12 March 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Esplodin]

Hamm3r, on 12 March 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

So what your saying is that you dont actually want a FIGHT, you just want an easy kill, make them come to you, all the reward without any of the effort....now I get it, thanks for clearing that up.

Smart pilots force the enemy to engage in the terrain and time of their choosing. "If you wish to do battle, attack what he must save." - some old book about conflict and war.

[DragonsFire]

Capping rules aside, 2 things that haven't been said here and remain true regardless of what side of this argument you fall on;
1. The less robots shooting at you at 1 time, the better your chance for survival, even if it's a bunch of new pilots who can't aim all that well, they will still eventually land shots.

2. The team and pilots who dictate the terms of the engagement are generally in a better position to win said engagement.

Notice, I am not saying it is a guarantee that you will win by dictating the terms of the engagement, or by just having 1 mech shooting at you. It does help to increase your odds of survival and winning though.

If I'm in my Jenner F, I absolutely want kills, but I don't want to be facing 3+ mechs just to do it if I don't have to. A good way to help facilitate that is by pinging the cap to peel off faster heavies/mediums, leaving the assaults to plod on to our cap. Then I can double back and hit them once the heavies/mediums have responded to said cap.

It doesn't always work that way, sometimes they don't send anyone to counter the cap, sometimes I get wiped out as soon as I start hitting the assaults. It is still worth doing for the times that it does split the group because it increases my chances at getting the win because of points 1 and 2.

Regardless, unless a cap is the ONLY way to win, I will never cap out, I prefer to fight it out.

I think the Assault mode could still use some work, and I saw a few options mentioned here that have some merit as well. I also agree that a TDM mode would be a welcome implementation. But just because you don't agree with a certain way the game is played does not make it wrong.

[Tice Daurus]

One more thing I forgot to mention.

A WIN IS A WIN IS A WIN. If I base cap, it doesn't make it a cheap win. Some of you might think that it's a cheap win. However, if you think that, you're WRONG.

Ok yes this is a computer game. But it's a computer simulation game based on war and the tactics of war. Winning is everything and I hate losing more than I love to win. However, if I do lose, I'll take it graciously and learn from it so I can win the next time someone tries to pull the same tactic on me and learn to defeat it.

Ultimately, people who like to claim that winning via base cap is a cheap win are spoil sports who can't acknowledge that it was my team and I that outwitted you and beat you by being smarter than you.

Now, does that mean I prefer base capping over total destruction? Not necessarily. Of course I would love to destroy and dominate the enemy into complete annihilation. But if I can win via being sneaky I'll do that also. My goal is to keep you guessing. Am I going to base cap you? Am I going to outmanuever, flank you, rush your forces, pull a faint and draw you in? I'll do whatever I can to destroy your forces and win.

TL;DR

A commander that limits his or herself into being inflexable and wanting to win in one specific way ONLY will make it harder for him or her to win, and that win will be costly when compared to the enemy who will want to win in any way possible by being flexable. Don't be whine or moan or complain about the rules when you know what the rules are in the first place and then cry because the other team won by base capping when that's in the rules. End of story.

[Darkfire66]

Thirdstar, on 12 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

You know what's a better way? Shooting a mech in the face. You actually seem afraid of combat.

Not at all. When I'm running an Atlas I will run into the thick of melee and come out with 800+ points of damage, and average above a 3.5 KDR. I love brawling. When I am in a brawler.

When I am in a support medium LRM boat, a light scout, or a sniper build, I'm not going to run straight toward packs of enemy assaults and heavies.

Hamm3r, on 12 March 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

So what your saying is that you dont actually want a FIGHT, you just want an easy kill, make them come to you, all the reward without any of the effort....now I get it, thanks for clearing that up.

Not at all. I want a fight, and I will force people to bring it. Normally at great risk to myself, I might add. As I've said, 2 ravens responding to the cap will kill me in a few seconds.

[Darkfire66]

KhanCipher, on 12 March 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

i don't get why people come on here claiming to have competive experance in another game trying to defend a capping mechanic that's half-baked, under-done, and all around a bad idea taking into consideration that WoT does the capping mechanic so much better.

what i'm saying is that you shouldn't defend a mechanic where the only real way to defend it is camp your base leaving your enemy lots of room to flank, shoot, snipe, harass, and do it from behind to you.

also when i play in pug/4-man, i just want to shoot stompy robot thingys, and not be interupted by some guy thinking he's cool with his RVN-3L cap rushing stompy robot thingy. If i want tactical depth, i'll go play in 8-mans...



my brawler STK-3F has something to say about the size of alpine... it doesn'thinder it at all,it just takes a little longer for me to wreak face, but who cares as long as i win and make 2+ kills a match, and someguy who thinks he's cool with his RVN-3L cap rushing doesn't interupt my fun stuffz

It is relevant in that a game without an incentive to leave your base will lead to people camping all match. You can use scouts to find pushes, and respond. You need a dynamic, responsive approach to be successful. You want to brawl, that's cool. You'll find that. But if you get so far out of position and fail to respond to that threat, you are setting yourself up to fail. And ultimately, that is the player's fault, not bad game design.

Edited by Darkfire66, 12 March 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[Hamm3r]

Darkfire66, on 12 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Not at all. I want a fight, and I will force people to bring it. Normally at great risk to myself, I might add. As I've said, 2 ravens responding to the cap will kill me in a few seconds.

Bro, I'm not trying to berate you and put you down, its ok to to admit you take the easy road, if you want to side skirt the battle and run to the cap, fine go ahead, just don't claim to be some 1337 bad@$$ when you do. I run a Raven 3L on ocasion, I fully admit that's its an OP combination and easy mode, and that's why I sometimes run it, but I don't claim that I'm a bad mother-Fer because I got 3 kills in a game with it.

[Timuroslav]

Homeless Bill, on 11 March 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Just give us team deathmatch FFS.

They won't create a Team Death Match YET because there is balancing problems with ELO. Currently, the Raven which is really more of a Medium trumps all the Lights in the weight class.
until Tonnage balance is reassed they will not Attempt a TeamDeath Match becauce of the Fear of what happened in Mechwarrior 4 Mercs Assaults Assaults Everywhere.

They do want to imploy it eventually though.

Aside. Shogun Reference Perfectly fits.. Bravo sir
(The Shogun 2 Argument):
Capping points to win the battle needs to exists otherwise you have 2 stubborn opponents who don't want to lose an upfront battle camping, making battles infinitely long. <- not the way to go.

There are More options than Rush or Brawl, it's called communicating with your team, and Or Baiting or Distracting <- which also happened a lot in Shogun 2

[Darkfire66]

Hamm3r, on 12 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Bro, I'm not trying to berate you and put you down, its ok to to admit you take the easy road, if you want to side skirt the battle and run to the cap, fine go ahead, just don't claim to be some 1337 bad@$$ when you do. I run a Raven 3L on ocasion, I fully admit that's its an OP combination and easy mode, and that's why I sometimes run it, but I don't claim that I'm a bad mother-Fer because I got 3 kills in a game with it.

It's not taking the easy road, having teams setup huge defensive lines on hills, in cover, away from their base forces you to do this.

I don't go for cap wins that often, but when I do, it is their fault. I'm doing this in a medium at 85 kph. I don't even run a cap accelerator. If they take THAT long to get back, they deserve to lose.

Tactically, that is the right choice. I'm not going to charge in open field towards Ppoptards and LRM stalkers with SRM6 Cat backup that are dug in. That is stupid.

I hate losing. I'll win however I can.

If people want to just goof off, that's fine too. I love seeing a 6 flamer jenner on the other team, because I know we'll pretty much win automatically. But having someone on your team who doesn't care about winning is a drag. That makes you dead weight.

[Hamm3r]

Darkfire66, on 12 March 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

It's not taking the easy road, having teams setup huge defensive lines on hills, in cover, away from their base forces you to do this.

I don't go for cap wins that often, but when I do, it is their fault. I'm doing this in a medium at 85 kph. I don't even run a cap accelerator. If they take THAT long to get back, they deserve to lose.

Tactically, that is the right choice. I'm not going to charge in open field towards Ppoptards and LRM stalkers with SRM6 Cat backup that are dug in. That is stupid.

I hate losing. I'll win however I can.

If people want to just goof off, that's fine too. I love seeing a 6 flamer jenner on the other team, because I know we'll pretty much win automatically. But having someone on your team who doesn't care about winning is a drag. That makes you dead weight.

What about moving and engaging with your team? I'm sure the Assaults would love to have your firepower helping to pick off the other Mediums or lights in the area, your response is just selfish. And yes, it is the easy road, "I might get killed and lose so I'm going to run around and cap," that's pretty much the definition of it.

Edited by Hamm3r, 12 March 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Darkfire66]

Hamm3r, on 12 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

What about moving and engaging with your team? I'm sure the Assaults would love to have your firepower helping to pick off the other Mediums or lights in the area, your response is just selfish. And yes, it is the easy road, that's pretty much the definition of it.

Depending on the mech, my support builds can easily do 800+ damage from 800 meters just as well from the back. I'll dive in when it is needed, but the trebuchet isn't going to hold up inside of 400 meters against anything.

Most games, I'll start off by picking a big mech, and letting him know I'll tag along with him. I am a team player. I try to help my team win however I can. Implying I'm some kind of coward who can't handle a fight is laughable. I think you are just getting angry because people like me, who actually play to win, won't fight you on your terms, on your ideal position, and that frustrates you. I hope you can learn to become more adaptable, and learn from the challenges these losses give you, making you a better player.

[Timuroslav]

Not to mention having the cap and choosing to brawl or not to Brawl, actually gives Light Mechs Meaning for existance. IE: Scouting and/or Capping

Please don't brag about being awesome in a Raven 3L when most veteran's consider the hit box broken at the moment. It makes you look silly. It also makes you look like the OP Hipster who plays Jenners when they're broken Plays Splat cats when they're broken plays etc etc etc.

Ever play alpine(conquest) without LightMechs? instant-lose

Edited by Timuroslav, 12 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Hamm3r]

Darkfire66, on 12 March 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Depending on the mech, my support builds can easily do 800+ damage from 800 meters just as well from the back. I'll dive in when it is needed, but the trebuchet isn't going to hold up inside of 400 meters against anything.

Most games, I'll start off by picking a big mech, and letting him know I'll tag along with him. I am a team player. I try to help my team win however I can. Implying I'm some kind of coward who can't handle a fight is laughable. I think you are just getting angry because people like me, who actually play to win, won't fight you on your terms, on your ideal position, and that frustrates you. I hope you can learn to become more adaptable, and learn from the challenges these losses give you, making you a better player.

Hahaha Thats funny! Bro, where do you get the impression that I'm angry or frustrated at you?? I've said it before, I don't care how you play, play it however you want to, just don't claim to be the king when you take the easy road.

Timuroslav, on 12 March 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Not to mention having the cap and choosing to brawl or not to Brawl, actually gives Light Mechs Meaning for existance.

Please don't brag about being awesome in a Raven 3L when most veteran's consider the hit box broken at the moment. It makes you look silly. It also makes you look like the OP Hipster who plays Jenners when they're broken Plays Splat cats when they're broken plays etc etc etc.

All I said was that they are easy and that's why I run one on occasion, if that makes me look silly then call me a Court Jester cause I'm sorry, but I just don't care what Timuroslav thinks, but at least I can admit that's its easy mode and OP. Please, get over your self already.

[Tice Daurus]

Hamm3r, on 12 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

What about moving and engaging with your team? I'm sure the Assaults would love to have your firepower helping to pick off the other Mediums or lights in the area, your response is just selfish. And yes, it is the easy road, that's pretty much the definition of it.

Hamm3r, there is supporting your team, and then there is tactical PUG stupidity.

For example, say our team has myself, you and 6 other PUG on the team and we all got ELO chosen with light and medium mechs somehow. Now, say one of our light mechs scouts out the other side and see's 4 Asssault mechs and 4 Heavy mechs. You would be tactically STUPID to try and take them on via weapons. Your option to win which most smart people would know is to distract the enemy, pull them as far away from base as possible and then have either 1 mech or 2 mechs split off and try to beeline it to their base to cap for the win.

However, PUG's being PUG's, they just charge in stupid like, and try to fight the enemy. If that's the case...to hell with them, I'm doing what's smart which is try and sneak around and cap the base. If I am outgunned and outclassed, capping is a viable option and smart to do.

But then when I get my own team yelling at me for trying to cap a base, and we WIN the game, and they are still yelling at me saying I was a coward and I had to win the LAME way, even if they got roflstomped 0-7 and I'm the only one left and we won via base cap and I'm getting insulted by BOTH sides for being lame because I capped...that's STUPID.

Capping is acceptable. The way I look at capping is this...if the enemy team is DUMB enough to leave the base wide freaking open for me to cap it, and we cap it and win, then the insult is on YOU for being stupid to leave it open. And I won't claim to be a bad@$$ for capping, but I will claim being tactically superior to the enemy's little brains for allowing me to cap your base.

How did character Forrest Gump put it...STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.

Edited by Tice Daurus, 12 March 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[Timuroslav]

@Hamm3r
You are attacking the posters diction and not their Arguments...

This effectively is not an discussion anymore, it's a rant.
Address the evidence and rip it apart with Reason or Logic if you can.

The issues if Capping is removed:
-Infinite Camping, with NonTimebased C-bills
-the Destruction of Casual Gameplay/Entertainment.

Edited by Timuroslav, 12 March 2013 - 11:54 AM.