149 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Put one cap location in the center of the map - in the open and have it not activate until 5 minutes (or more) into the game. Removes the temptation to base cap and still leaves a way out of a game where one lone light decides he would rather hide than let the game end.

Agreed. A King of the Hill style gamemode would be so much better.

[Darkfire66]

themoob, on 11 March 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Half (or more) of the game is on the campaign map.

Buuut I'm just a history purist I suppose, and vanilla TW makes me angry.

I played A LOT of single player as well. Well over a hundred hours.

Sometimes, though, you just want to fight battles, and the AI is never as dynamic.

[Thirdstar]

I've been on many, many winning caps. It's equally no fun for me. Your original assertion that only people who lose to caps dislike it is fallacious.

Capping gets in the way my primary reason to play this game. To shoot at and be shot by giant stompy mechs. I don't give a damn about 'winning'.

[Darkfire66]

Thirdstar, on 11 March 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

I've been on many, many winning caps. It's equally no fun for me. Your original assertion that only people who lose to caps dislike it is fallacious.

Capping gets in the way my primary reason to play this game. To shoot at and be shot by giant stompy mechs. I don't give a damn about 'winning'.

Most people like winning. Most people who have lost to cap while I have pugged have complained in chat. so...

[Thirdstar]

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Most people like winning. Most people who have lost to cap while I have pugged have complained in chat. so...

[Citation Needed]

I'd present that most people like having fun, and achieve than fun in different ways.

Also, because you've not observed a response/effect it does not exist?

Edited by Thirdstar, 11 March 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[Enig]

This spaghetti is so hard to get out of my keyboard.

I think I'm going to have to take the keys off.

[Hamm3r]

I agree Capping is a valid way to win, but its kinda cheep when a gaggle of lights runs straight for it and just as a decent fight is starting "Base is under attack" flashes across the screen, and its over in 2 mins with minimal damage done on either side.... Maybe its me but that's just not much fun.

Now earlier I was playing with the Trial Dragon, cause I like dropping in Trials sometimes, its fun...don't judge me.....anyways, lost the AC2, LRM, an arm and lota armor to a fight with a Yen Lo at our cap on Frozen city, (Thank god he couldn't aim that AC20!) proceeded to run the tunnel to the enemy's back side with only 2MLs, decided to stand on their CAP, wasn't much use in a fight anyways. Dropped a Cent-AL that was AFK (Why not, couldn't resist, besides, everybody does it!!) and a damaged X5 that came knocking. Ended up being the last guy on my team with two of them left and won by Cap. Now THAT was fun!

Edited by Hamm3r, 11 March 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[Dodger79]

Well, in my opinion capping is two different things depending on you playing as a PUG or in an 8man-premade. In a PUG-match, that mostly lacks tactics and therefore is more kind of a deathmatch to me, it is just frustrating to have a good fight and destroy 7 out of 8 enemies and then got capped by a lonely Mech that doesn't want to join a fight. In an 8man it's a different story, because it is more about tactics. In an 8man you just made a huge mistake if your base is capped. You have a commander with scouts at his disposal to have a look at what the enemy does and react accordingly. Getting surprised by a base rush is just a mistake and therefore it is legitimate for the enemy to take advantage of that mistake.

[Hamm3r]

Dodger79, on 11 March 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Well, in my opinion capping is two different things depending on you playing as a PUG or in an 8man-premade. In a PUG-match, that mostly lacks tactics and therefore is more kind of a deathmatch to me, it is just frustrating to have a good fight and destroy 7 out of 8 enemies and then got capped by a lonely Mech that doesn't want to join a fight. In an 8man it's a different story, because it is more about tactics. In an 8man you just made a huge mistake if your base is capped. You have a commander with scouts at his disposal to have a look at what the enemy does and react accordingly. Getting surprised by a base rush is just a mistake and therefore it is legitimate for the enemy to take advantage of that mistake.

I dont really agree with that, I PUG exclusively and running for the CAP sometimes is a great way to send the other team off balance, let your team catch them when they are scattered. Now this assumes that the capper will join the fight at some point, which is what I have been known to do some times. PUGs aren't always cowards who will avoid a fight. I hate it when people make those generalizations, I'm usually one of the first to run straight into a fight! I can be very aggressive, not really very good, my stats prove that but I don't play for stats, I play to have fun.

[Critical Fumble]

Thirdstar, on 11 March 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

I've been on many, many winning caps. It's equally no fun for me. Your original assertion that only people who lose to caps dislike it is fallacious.

Capping gets in the way my primary reason to play this game. To shoot at and be shot by giant stompy mechs. I don't give a damn about 'winning'.

How do you suggest keeping anything beyond the most efficient gunboats and damage sponges viable in a TDM style mode?

On one hand, you could easily argue that capping makes fast mechs OP, as they can easily defeat any number of assaults by completing the objectives; on the other hand if you take that way, you need either tonnage (rather than player count) matching, or some kind of gimmick that makes light and medium mechs as powerful as heavies and assaults (who knew the Raven's wonky hitbox issue was a feature?).

I could get behind all kinds of improvements to the current game modes and information mechanics, mind you.

[Erik Hollister]

MischiefSC, on 11 March 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Assault isn't tactical, you rush or hold. It's not even rock/paper/scissors, it's rock/rock.

Alpine is another matter all together but otherwise Assault is just fast and dirty cap rushing.

Really? I mean, I only PUG (never been in a premade), so maybe I'm sheltered. I almost never see an assault match end in a cap. Maybe 5% of the time. I'll flank and put a few seconds on a base just to shake up the opposition and make them come out of their shell, but I don't see many cap wins. Wierd

[Dodger79]

Hamm3r, on 11 March 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

I dont really agree with that, I PUG exclusively and running for the CAP sometimes is a great way to send the other team off balance, let your team catch them when they are scattered. Now this assumes that the capper will join the fight at some point, which is what I have been known to do some times. PUGs aren't always cowards who will avoid a fight. I hate it when people make those generalizations, I'm usually one of the first to run straight into a fight! I can be very aggressive, not really very good, my stats prove that but I don't play for stats, I play to have fun.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. What i was trying to say was: due to the lack of communication it is hard to play as argonazed in a PUG as in a premade. Therefore maneuvers like "i start the cap, you crush them from the back when they turn around to defend" are quite unlikely on purpose. They might occure accidentally. But most of the time your team either dissipates after the first 1 or 2 Mechs start the "outmaneuvering to distraction-cap" or they just miss the right point to push etc.etc. And then it is very frustrating to loose after a good and hard fight just because someone sneaks around avoiding a fight. One time the enemy won, because an undamaged Atlas (for god's sake) avoided battle and went to the cap. How would the fight have ended with an additional Atlas on the enemies side? Well, he would have hepled in the fight, i think. A pesky Raven, maybe better off in the battle then capping, thinking of all the damage these little suckers can deal.

[Wintersdark]

Suggestion here to deal with this here:
http://mwomercs.com/...ired-game-mode/

The idea in the design is simple:

• Create a game mode using already existing coding and assets thus that can be implemented on the existing maps, and as simply and quickly as possible - so it has a real chance of happening as opposed to elaborate suggestions.
  
• Essentially require combat. There is no non-combat win option here, really.
  
• Avoid the trolling possibilities of TDM: Two teams hunkering down defensively and refusing to attack as per the OP's point in this thread, or a light hiding out to drag the match out endlessly.

In short: A single base, relatively centrally located, in a game mode using Conquest rules (but for the single base). It's the only base. You need to capture and hold it to gain points, after accruing a set number of points you win.

Brawling is emphasized, but as this is the only base on the map, and it's centrally located, long range fire support is very useful and successfully outflanking can be devastating.

It's not for everyone, but it's a game mode that would garauntee good fights every time.

[Thirdstar]

Critical Fumble, on 11 March 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

I could get behind all kinds of improvements to the current game modes and information mechanics, mind you.

Well for a start I'd like it if the capture bar resets quickly if the enemy mechs moves off of the redsquare. Next, the capture module needs to go. Either that or the multiplicative effect needs to go. 4 lights, all with cap module is just wrong.

ECM is a whole other can of worms that I don't want to go into here.

Edit: perhaps even add a feature from World of Tanks. If the capturing mechs take damage, the capture bar resets. Lets face it, it ridiculously easy to cap, compared to how hard it is to kill all 8 of the enemy team. Shouldn't both objectives require equivalent amounts of work?

Edited by Thirdstar, 11 March 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[Darkfire66]

Thirdstar, on 11 March 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

[Citation Needed]

I'd present that most people like having fun, and achieve than fun in different ways.

Also, because you've not observed a response/effect it does not exist?

Nothing wrong with people having fun, but if you aren't considering all your resources, your options, your responsibilities, you are dragging your team down.

I have pugged in troll builds a few times. But most of the time, I'll be top 3 in damage, assists, kills, etc.

I feel you have an obligation to go hard, and use any means at your disposal to win.

It's a game, though. If you have fun doing your own thing, others will pick up your slack. Or they will lose.

[Thirdstar]

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with people having fun, but if you aren't considering all your resources, your options, your responsibilities, you are dragging your team down.

I have pugged in troll builds a few times. But most of the time, I'll be top 3 in damage, assists, kills, etc.

I feel you have an obligation to go hard, and use any means at your disposal to win.

It's a game, though. If you have fun doing your own thing, others will pick up your slack. Or they will lose.

You clearly see this game as 'srs bidness'. Others do not. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

Also, what does getting top 3 damage, assists, kills, etc have to do with anything? You can get that personally and still lose to a cap.

I have zero obligation to anything besides attempting to be somewhat polite in chat. I'll do my best to have fun. End of story.

[Darkfire66]

That's fine. ELO will eventually fit you with other people that don't care about winning.

[Thirdstar]

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

That's fine. ELO will eventually fit you with other people that don't care about winning.

I'm sorry to tell you that's not how elo works.

[Darkfire66]

If you lose more often, you will play against other people who have lost more often. Yes, there is some weighting involved.

Enjoy the game however you want.

Personally I would just feel bad about dragging my team down.

[Thirdstar]

Darkfire66, on 11 March 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

Personally I would just feel bad about dragging my team down.

Implying that NOT attempting to cap all the time, every time is somehow 'dragging your team down'.

You're not very good at this 'making a rational argument' thing are you?