22 replies to this topic

[Aaren Kai]

Let's save some of the flack. Yes, beta. Yes, need to be noob friendly. Yes, people whine. Yes, this is a game. Now onto the discussion.

So, my post is about game balance and why I don't think this current version of MWO is using all of the game mechanics placed in the base rules to balance games. The reason for this is that I think some of the mechanics have been simplified or over looked leaving the other factors too favorable and driving players to certain builds, thus creating a downward spiral of trying to balance gameplay by nerfing or buffing items poorly.

If we look at weapons, there are four main factors. Weight, damage, heat, and range. I believe three of these are mostly correct while heat itself is too simple. Right now we have a simple guage that only acts as an on or off switch for the mechs power. This leads to people building very high heat generating mechs. Maybe things fire to fast etc... But the game play in my opinion feels right so I think it should stay just where it is. I believe we can make heat a better balancing factor by adding flavor to what happens to the mech without burdening the player with new controls or complexity.

My suggestion is to dive a bit into the game lore and mechanics and draw out some of the elements that are used and translate them into what we see in the game. For lore items these might be; heat fatigue on the pilot, system performance degrading, the risk of ammo explosions or component damage.

So leaving the base human input interactions the same as now (movement, firing keys etc) to keep the user interactions at the same level, the developers look at adding various heat effects/flavor into the game effects directly.

If we look at the heat guage and divide it into chunks (for ease of discussion but perhaps a gradient curve or linear pattern when and if applied) of say 0-50%, 50-75%, and 75-100% we get to see different levels of effect on the game for the user. Where 0-50% behaves much like we have now, 50-75% we begin to see things like a reduction in torso turn speed and arm movement, slower mech response in targeting info, the beginning of HUD flicker and at 75-100% the effects increase and we begin to see things like target recticles jump a little bit so aim is not precise, a fogging haze that comes in from the edges the begins to obstruct vision (like tunnel vision), and perhaps ammo risks if you stay in the red for too long..

Now these are just ideas to begin with and each can be discussed but the idea is that there is more incentive to create mechs that are more balanced versus everything to just weapons. Sure you CAN do it still, but your not rewarded for doing it and have to pay a penalty.

I think this would reduce things that have an extreme alpha strike by making it have a few more negatives and weakness, increase the functionality of ballistics and their usage, while also reducing pinpoint convergence somewhat for the second/third shot when moving and firing high alphas.

A more balanced mech would retain all its accuracies and become more effective to use thus in turn making the game more robust in its nature as opposed to rewarding boating.

I would also throw in movement effects at various speeds but that is another topic.

[Sudden Reversal]

I agree, heat needs to do more than it does now.

I would actually like to see the reduced movement effects of high heat and risk of ammo explosion introduced before anything else, shouldn't be that hard to implement either.

[Chemie]

How about >75% and your energy weapons cycle twice as slowly; it makes real-world sense and changes the heat dynamics. Follows lore (at least the bokos) where the pilot mad to manage heat build up differently as the battle unfolded.

Edited by Chemie, 10 March 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Aaren Kai]

Seriously? The thread about female mechs with boobs gets more conversation? Wow my topics suck...

[Barnaby Jones]

Aaren Kai, on 10 March 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Seriously? The thread about female mechs with boobs gets more conversation? Wow my topics suck...

the power of boobs compells you...

[Tickdoff Tank]

They are not going to change the heat "penalty" so don't even bother asking.

[Terror Teddy]

Well, since Double Heat Sinks usually give 0,2 per second in the tabletop (or 2 per turn) they have already done that.

Instead of giving us those things like:
-Risk of shutdown
-Longer weapon cycle time
-Longer weapon lock time
-Longer target info time

They instead lowered DHS outside of the engine to 0,14 to compensate for us not suffering from that..

Personally i would like to see such things so mechs running at 80% heat would suffer in the long run by basically not functioning at optimal capacity.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 10 March 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Aaren Kai]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well, since Double Heat Sinks usually give 0,2 per second in the tabletop (or 2 per turn) they have already done that.

Instead of giving us those things like:
-Risk of shutdown
-Longer weapon cycle time
-Longer weapon lock time
-Longer target info time

They instead lowered DHS outside of the engine to 0,14 to compensate for us not suffering from that..

Personally i would like to see such things so mechs running at 80% heat would suffer in the long run by basically not functioning at optimal capacity.

Agreed, though I think we might be in the minority and people want a more simplistic game...

[Davers]

Pretty much all the above would be good and help balance the game better. It would make more sense to have mechs with different weapons for different ranges (like in TT and all the stock/trial mechs!) rather than just one weapon group that they repeatedly alpha strike.

[Antonio]

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well, since Double Heat Sinks usually give 0,2 per second in the tabletop (or 2 per turn) they have already done that.

Instead of giving us those things like:
-Risk of shutdown
-Longer weapon cycle time
-Longer weapon lock time
-Longer target info time

They instead lowered DHS outside of the engine to 0,14 to compensate for us not suffering from that..

Personally i would like to see such things so mechs running at 80% heat would suffer in the long run by basically not functioning at optimal capacity.

With pilot efficiencies anyone running 18 DHS or less gets the equivalent of true doubles. I too agree that 50-100% heat should decrease the performance of the mech.

[Shumabot]

Yeah guys, clearly what we want to do is encourage people to use nothing but missiles and auto AC5's. This reign of large lasers has gone on too long. The poor A1s, double gauss cataphracts, lrm60 stalkers, and D-DC Atlasses need their time in the sun.

The Awesome 8-Q has been too dominant.

This thread and the posts agreeing with it are precisely why I consistently argue that the people here have no idea what the issues with balance are in this game. They just want it to be a closer proxy to a badly balanced tabletop game.

Edited by Shumabot, 11 March 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[Davers]

Shumabot, on 11 March 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

The Awesome 8-Q has been too dominant.

This thread and the posts agreeing with it are precisely why I consistently argue that the people here have no idea what the issues with balance are in this game. They just want it to be a closer proxy to a badly balanced tabletop game.

The poor 8Q. At least it had it's day when it was a 7 pulse laser Charger. But maybe you are right. We don't want energy builds to be even worse then they currently are.

[Aaren Kai]

Shumabot, on 11 March 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Yeah guys, clearly what we want to do is encourage people to use nothing but missiles and auto AC5's. This reign of large lasers has gone on too long. The poor A1s, double gauss cataphracts, lrm60 stalkers, and D-DC Atlasses need their time in the sun.

The Awesome 8-Q has been too dominant.

This thread and the posts agreeing with it are precisely why I consistently argue that the people here have no idea what the issues with balance are in this game. They just want it to be a closer proxy to a badly balanced tabletop game.

Wha? Have as many lasers as you want... I am arguing that if you want 6 ppcs on a mech there should be a penalty. And if you want 5 LRM 20s... Same deal. Same with with 3 ultra 5 cannons. This rule would effect boating, not a specific weapon. And get this... You can add heat sinks to manage your heat and no side effects.

[SpiralRazor]

Aaren Kai, on 10 March 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Let's save some of the flack. Yes, beta. Yes, need to be noob friendly. Yes, people whine. Yes, this is a game. Now onto the discussion.

So, my post is about game balance and why I don't think this current version of MWO is using all of the game mechanics placed in the base rules to balance games. The reason for this is that I think some of the mechanics have been simplified or over looked leaving the other factors too favorable and driving players to certain builds, thus creating a downward spiral of trying to balance gameplay by nerfing or buffing items poorly.

If we look at weapons, there are four main factors. Weight, damage, heat, and range. I believe three of these are mostly correct while heat itself is too simple. Right now we have a simple guage that only acts as an on or off switch for the mechs power. This leads to people building very high heat generating mechs. Maybe things fire to fast etc... But the game play in my opinion feels right so I think it should stay just where it is. I believe we can make heat a better balancing factor by adding flavor to what happens to the mech without burdening the player with new controls or complexity.

My suggestion is to dive a bit into the game lore and mechanics and draw out some of the elements that are used and translate them into what we see in the game. For lore items these might be; heat fatigue on the pilot, system performance degrading, the risk of ammo explosions or component damage.

So leaving the base human input interactions the same as now (movement, firing keys etc) to keep the user interactions at the same level, the developers look at adding various heat effects/flavor into the game effects directly.

If we look at the heat guage and divide it into chunks (for ease of discussion but perhaps a gradient curve or linear pattern when and if applied) of say 0-50%, 50-75%, and 75-100% we get to see different levels of effect on the game for the user. Where 0-50% behaves much like we have now, 50-75% we begin to see things like a reduction in torso turn speed and arm movement, slower mech response in targeting info, the beginning of HUD flicker and at 75-100% the effects increase and we begin to see things like target recticles jump a little bit so aim is not precise, a fogging haze that comes in from the edges the begins to obstruct vision (like tunnel vision), and perhaps ammo risks if you stay in the red for too long..

Now these are just ideas to begin with and each can be discussed but the idea is that there is more incentive to create mechs that are more balanced versus everything to just weapons. Sure you CAN do it still, but your not rewarded for doing it and have to pay a penalty.

I think this would reduce things that have an extreme alpha strike by making it have a few more negatives and weakness, increase the functionality of ballistics and their usage, while also reducing pinpoint convergence somewhat for the second/third shot when moving and firing high alphas.

A more balanced mech would retain all its accuracies and become more effective to use thus in turn making the game more robust in its nature as opposed to rewarding boating.

I would also throw in movement effects at various speeds but that is another topic.

That would be awesome:) It would indirectly buff Autocannons since those are mostly low heat builds anyway.

[Zordicron]

Aaren Kai, on 10 March 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

female mechs with boobs

Terror Teddy, on 10 March 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Double Heat Sinks

eh? eh? get it?


Sorry.

[ciller]

The problem with this is that EVERY mech runs over 50% heat so much of the time. But yeah, more cool effects as your mech heat would be cool! The more layers this game has to the simulation the more interesting it gets.

[Shumabot]

Aaren Kai, on 11 March 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Wha? Have as many lasers as you want... I am arguing that if you want 6 ppcs on a mech there should be a penalty. And if you want 5 LRM 20s... Same deal. Same with with 3 ultra 5 cannons. This rule would effect boating, not a specific weapon. And get this... You can add heat sinks to manage your heat and no side effects.

Your plan does nothing to the majority of power builds in this game. If anything it makes them dramatically better by comparison. LRMs don't care, 6 ppc stalker doesnt care, he's gonna fire once then wait until your change does nothing anyway. Tri ultra AC5 certainly doesn't care either. The raven 3l wouldn't even notice a change and the catapault A1 would love how much less people are able to defend themselves.

You know what cares? Hunchbacks. Jenners. Awesomes. Commandos. Cicadas. All those mechs that are bad because heat already disproportionately effects them and because they can't boat missiles or ultra AC5s.

This is just another awful suggestion drawn from the tabletop that addresses nothing within the game and does nothing but exacerbate pre existing balance issues.

Edited by Shumabot, 11 March 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Vahnn]

EDIT: Changed "increased weapon cycle times" to be specific to ballistic weapons only. This would account for the sluggish performance of the mechanical reloading systems involved, which I think would balanced the heat effects between Energy/Ballistic weapons.

I wholeheartedly concur.

While I would love some visual effects to simulate the effects of extreme heat on the pilot, I wouldn't want it to be something graphically intensive which would hinder players with higher graphics settings. Perhaps having the pilot's head sway slightly when approaching critical heat levels.

I like a lot of your ideas concerning the lore and high heat levels, as well. I've played MW since MW2, but have never read a Battletech novel until recently. The extreme levels of heat and its effects on the pilot are something I had never considered until reading, and it's just a small detail that drew me in deeper to the lore and story behind BT and MW. And I would love to see some of this implemented in this game!

I like your scale as it is, but I would say 4 sections:
0-50:.......Functions as normal in line with current game.
50-75:.....Reduced torso/arm movement, reduction in JJ efficiency.
75-90:.....Simulated pilot reactions to increased heat, increased ballistic weapon cycle times, heat dissipation greatly reduced.
90-100:...Extreme pilot reactions, computer malfunctions/glitches, danger of ammo explosions, severely reduced JJ, top speed reduced.

In particular I would like to point out the reduction in the heat sinks' ability to dissipate heat once in the 75+ range, which would go a long way toward encouraging players to create more heat-efficient builds. This would likely lower the total number of weapons players try to equip, plus fitting more heat sinks, while also probably decreasing engine sizes or armor levels. (Also, read EDIT above for another major point in this post.)

The overall effect on the game would less the emphasis on alpha-strikes with the most powerful close-range weapons, as is the current trend in the game, and instead encourage players to equip fewer of a better variety of weaponry, with more care taken to attack at longer ranges and making better use of cover to allow for increased control in heat levels.

And I really think that these changes would be possible with very little or no tweaking to the current weapon balance.

Edited by Vahnn, 11 March 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Aaren Kai, on 11 March 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Wha? Have as many lasers as you want... I am arguing that if you want 6 ppcs on a mech there should be a penalty. And if you want 5 LRM 20s... Same deal. Same with with 3 ultra 5 cannons. This rule would effect boating, not a specific weapon. And get this... You can add heat sinks to manage your heat and no side effects.

MWO players already use phenomenally more heat sinks than Table Top players used to put on their builds. You can't even fit more than 22-23 DHS on a Mech before running out of usable Critical slots for weapons. Stop being dense.

Screwing around with heat will just make the currently underpowered weapons worse and do little/nothing to change the current dominant weapons which have extreme Damage/Heat ratios already.

[Shumabot]

Quote

The overall effect on the game would less the emphasis on alpha-strikes with the most powerful close-range weapons, as is the current trend in the game, and instead encourage players to equip fewer of a better variety of weaponry, with more care taken to attack at longer ranges and making better use of cover to allow for increased control in heat levels.

First of all, the current meta is sniping with lrm support. Assuming it wasn't though, how does this change effect that in the slightest..? The most powerful brawling builds (A1, DDC, SRM Bomb Stalker, 3L) boat weapons that don't care about heat in the slightest. If you want to incentivise people to use sniping weapons you probably shouldn't punish people for using PPCs. All they'll do is switch to more LRMs to get around the heat nerf.