130 replies to this topic

[Zeh]

Rebas Kradd, on 12 March 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

You said earlier that 'Mechs should be a flexible combat unit, but that only goes so far. The IS obviously didn't design the Atlas with Alpine in mind. A 'Mech should not be limited to one situation, but neither is it expected to handle all of them. That's a "God 'Mech" and it's unrealistic. My fear is that balanced 'Mechs will actually eliminate strategy and turn everything into an evenly matched slugfest where the winner comes down to chance far too often.

How would the merc unit know they're going to start 2km from the enemy before the fight starts? Hell, I'd be all for even bigger maps with random drop locations if we actually had objectives that forced conflict (Such as an attack/defend scenario)

In other words, you shouldn't know "My mech is going to fight up close today". REGARDLESS of your intel before the drop. There's no way in hell you're going to know enough to justify only bringing short-range weapons except in a very small set of circumstances (I'd even suggest there's no way you'd ever drop directly into an enemy city, given base defenses vs dropships, etc)

I don't think it fits canonically, and I think it's bad. But I bet we'll just agree to disagree : )

[KuruptU4Fun]

jay35, on 12 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Interesting argument. Thing is, ELO also can't account for teamplay, which is the only real deciding factor in 90% of matches (teamplay, that is).

The team that does the better job of coordinating, sticking together, and focusing fire on one threat at a time, will almost always come out on top. And ELO has no ability to predetermine or account for that factor, which is why ELO is mostly useless and often ends up providing horrible matchups because eight people who work together and are already coordinating which mechs they take via TeamSpeak, will at least work together well regardless of the map, and thus they already have a distinct advantage over a PUG group of individuals. At least if the individuals had the opportunity to select a mech appropriate for the map, it might give them a better chance.

You're right Jay, ELO doesn't account for teamplay, and thus shouldn't be considered in a team based tourney. My idea comes from the opposite end (somewhat) where having readied up 4 different weight classed mechs allows for diversity before the map is revealed.

The MM picks what mech you get to use and balances the team(s) out accordingly. This should be started in team play tourneys first where more communication is used. Giving teams the opportunity to co-ordinate mech builds back in the mech lab. There would be other considerations needed like how many ECM mechs would be allowed. But again, a lot of good teams aren't dependent on ECM anyways.

[Zeh]

Thontor, on 12 March 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Actually they did design the Atlas with the possibility of dropping into an environment like Alpine in mind. While the Atlas-D is certainly primarily a short range brawler, the whole point of having the LRM 20 on there is so that it isn't completely useless while outside the range of its main armaments.

Not to mention any Merc Group with access to an Atlas is probably going to make the most out of it, and use it whether it's optimal or not. Mechs aint cheap.

[jay35]

Timuroslav, on 12 March 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Ever play Mechwarrior 4?

Extensively. And MW4 Mercenaries, and MekTek's additional content for it.

Quote

95% of what you see i[s] Assault mechs because the maps people choose are all close quarters.

That was the entire point of Solaris match maps, which are the ones you're referring to: Brawling and sheer, raw firepower. And they were popular because they're fun in their own right. But you're cherry picking. Those maps were not all that was played, and neither in the casual or the competitive scenes.
There were also a huge number of large maps of sizes roughly equivalent to Alpine Peaks that were also extremely popular.

Quote

That will hurt gameplay in only choosing certain mechs for certain maps.

That's actually what we have right now: We can only choose from among "safe" builds right now because we don't want to risk taking something intended for cold climates into a desert map, or a dirt slow assault into a large map. Builds are fairly restricted right now, for better or worse, specifically because of the random map concept. And you're right, it does hurt gameplay.

Edited by jay35, 12 March 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Phoenix Gray]

Treckin, on 12 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Could you please consider or consider talking with us a bit about the possibility of choosing your mech AFTER the map selection process has happened?

As it is I own many many mechs, but being forced to build every single one so it can engage effectively in each map is not only 1 dimensional, its getting boring.

I and many other people here would like to specialize more.

The current system makes sense as an alpha build or proof of concept.

Otherwise it doesnt make any sense - why would I be in a RANDOM mech for a PLANNED engagement?

tldr;

Would you consider please allowing mech selection AFTER map selection?

This actually makes some sense from game logic. How often are you not going to know what sort of terrain you're deploying to/stationed in?

[Zeh]

Phoenix Gray, on 12 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

This actually makes some sense from game logic. How often are you not going to know what sort of terrain you're deploying to/stationed in?

Gotta love forums. Everyone reads part of page 1, page 5, then posts.

This was covered a lot. You could never possibly know the actual engagement range when dropping onto a foreign planet (IMO)

Edited by Zeh, 12 March 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[jay35]

KuruptU4Fun, on 12 March 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

You're right Jay, ELO doesn't account for teamplay, and thus shouldn't be considered in a team based tourney. My idea comes from the opposite end (somewhat) where having readied up 4 different weight classed mechs allows for diversity before the map is revealed.

The MM picks what mech you get to use and balances the team(s) out accordingly. This should be started in team play tourneys first where more communication is used. Giving teams the opportunity to co-ordinate mech builds back in the mech lab. There would be other considerations needed like how many ECM mechs would be allowed. But again, a lot of good teams aren't dependent on ECM anyways.

While that is an interesting suggestion for improving ELO and matchmaking, it doesn't really address the topic at hand, which is choosing mechs appropriate for specific types of maps.

[Phoenix Gray]

Phoenix Gray, on 12 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

This actually makes some sense from game logic. How often are you not going to know what sort of terrain you're deploying to/stationed in?

Of course if you only own one mech you're sierra oscar lima, so you'd better make it a versatile one or one that you know gives up certain options going in. Most light mechs know they're not standoff fighters, but it's a headache for mediums. Heavies and assaults have the capacity to carry ordnance effective to most distances.

Zeh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Gotta love forums. Everyone reads part of page 1, page 5, then posts.

This was covered a lot. You could never possibly know the actual engagement range when dropping onto a foreign planet (IMO)

How many unknown planets are there in the Inner Sphere? They've been fighting over the damn things for three centuries. They've probably got more mech footprints than Ft. Irwin has treadmarks.

[jay35]

Zeh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Gotta love forums. Everyone reads part of page 1, page 5, then posts.

This was covered a lot. You could never possibly know the actual engagement range when dropping onto a foreign planet (IMO)

Oh please. If an army isn't doing reconnaissance, they deserve to fail. Throughout history armies have always attempted to know as much as possible about their enemy and the terrain for the battle. Ideally, they also choose the spot on the field where the battle will take place so the terrain is advantageous, though that is not always an option.

But from human spies/scouts scouting out the terrain, to aircraft, satellites, drones, you name it, there is always recon involved before committing forces and the terrain and environment are primary factors to determine alongside enemy force composition, in order to bring the right equipment for the job.

Edited by jay35, 12 March 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

jay35, on 12 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

While that is an interesting suggestion for improving ELO and matchmaking, it doesn't really address the topic at hand, which is choosing mechs appropriate for specific types of maps.

You're true that it doesn't, but would that do the same thing that 8v8 matches are doing now, flooding them with non-varied mech teams? Eventually that would get as boring as playing 8v8 matches now.


Maybe a balance can be struck, giving teams the choice to meet another competing team, then discuss a selection of either MM by mech choice or map choice.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 12 March 2013 - 10:59 AM.

[Zeh]

Phoenix Gray, on 12 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

How many unknown planets are there in the Inner Sphere? They've been fighting over the damn things for three centuries. They've probably got more mech footprints than Ft. Irwin has treadmarks.

Doesn't matter. I'm saying you might know the temperature. You might know the time of day. Hell, you might even know the exact grid coordinate of your target and your landing zone. However, you would NOT know to-the-kilometer where the enemy is going to be when you land. Without that bit of information, there's no way to perfectly setup a fight. The enemy just moved 4km north of your landing position across a giant vast open plain because they figured you would bring only CQ weapons since your target was their city. Now you're stuck fighting multiple km across a giant plain with nothing but short-range weapons.

That's the environment that random maps are trying to simulate IMO. You cannot dictate the encounter parameters.

[Phoenix Gray]

Phoenix Gray, on 12 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Of course if you only own one mech you're sierra oscar lima, so you'd better make it a versatile one or one that you know gives up certain options going in. Most light mechs know they're not standoff fighters, but it's a headache for mediums. Heavies and assaults have the capacity to carry ordnance effective to most distances.



How many unknown planets are there in the Inner Sphere? They've been fighting over the damn things for three centuries. They've probably got more mech footprints than Ft. Irwin has treadmarks.

Of course, after the mission briefing, and, oh, I don't know, looking at planetary maps or consulting the three centuries of military history in the Inner Sphere and maybe even looking at the damn planet from orbit... yes, I can see where you might be surprised.

[Zeh]

jay35, on 12 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Oh please. If an army isn't doing reconnaissance, they deserve to fail. Throughout history armies have always attempted to know as much as possible about their enemy and the terrain for the battle. Ideally, they also choose the spot on the field where the battle will take place so the terrain is advantageous, though that is not always an option.

But from human spies/scouts scouting out the terrain, to aircraft, satellites, drones, you name it, there is always recon involved before committing forces and the terrain and environment are primary factors to determine alongside enemy force composition, in order to bring the right equipment for the job.

Again. This is a hostile planet, or at least AREA of the planet, where they will not allow any recon tech to be setup for long. Controlling a planet is likely far more absolute than controlling a patch of land on Earth.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Guys may I suggest something?

Instead of getting into a point-counterpoint discussion with someone else, let's go with more of a round robin discussion where ideas can come together in a group effort?

[Treckin]

Phoenix Gray, on 12 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Of course if you only own one mech you're sierra oscar lima, so you'd better make it a versatile one or one that you know gives up certain options going in. Most light mechs know they're not standoff fighters, but it's a headache for mediums. Heavies and assaults have the capacity to carry ordnance effective to most distances.



How many unknown planets are there in the Inner Sphere? They've been fighting over the damn things for three centuries. They've probably got more mech footprints than Ft. Irwin has treadmarks.

Thanks for freakin making sense. I said it before, its just a dumb mechanic, and still some people will come to its defense and manufacture 'lore' based excuses rather then real world solutions.

[Timuroslav]

Zeh, on 12 March 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Doesn't matter. I'm saying you might know the temperature. You might know the time of day. Hell, you might even know the exact grid coordinate of your target and your landing zone. However, you would NOT know to-the-kilometer where the enemy is going to be when you land. Without that bit of information, there's no way to perfectly setup a fight. The enemy just moved 4km north of your landing position across a giant vast open plain because they figured you would bring only CQ weapons since your target was their city. Now you're stuck fighting multiple km across a giant plain with nothing but short-range weapons.

That's the environment that random maps are trying to simulate IMO. You cannot dictate the encounter parameters.

Not to mention the planetary defenders, have already moved within hours of the Attackers Deploying a safe distance away in more favourable terrain.
Both sides would never compromise favourable terrain, though occassionaly they may bump into each other because conditions are so bad, or the intel was just flat out wrong. Or my gawd Their Scouts DIED before relaying information.

By the way, in the case of insurgent warfare and seige occasions, the Defenders NEVER get to pick the location. Yes, they MIGHT have info on the scale and mech types of said invading lance, but this is the Information Dark Age, Scout Mechs and Aircraft are the most reliable information gathers.

Long story short, most combat situations are lopsided. Because the information is lopsided.
For this reason, I like Hybrid maps.

Not to mention the Defenders with mechs already on the ground are going to Say. "Oh Wait ol chap, I got the perfect mech for this, I'll be back in an 2 hours once the dropship comes into the vicinity, Cheers!"

Edited by Timuroslav, 12 March 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[Kell Draygo]

Rebas Kradd, on 12 March 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

So instead you want 8 Splatcats on Alpine.

Maybe the Splatcats should stop cheesing so much.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Kell Draygo, on 12 March 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Maybe the Splatcats should stop cheesing so much.

You expect anything other than cheese out of the K*O*N*G teams?

[Fomites]

van Uber, on 12 March 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

This. So much this... I fully enjoy being dropped out of my comfort zone. I find it challenging to pilot a brawler in Alpine or a LRM-Cat among the houses of River City. That makes it exiting. Everyone running around with the optimal build for each map would make me quit this game in a heart beat.

Good points. Still, perhaps being able to queue two of the same weight class, and then pick one or the other, would at least keep the matchmaker fair on weights and give people the ability to make intelligent choices. Being able to play more intelligently (i.e. choosing a mech that leans more heavily on ballistics on a hot planet) shouldn't be a *bad* thing, and if you have to build ignorance into your game...that's a potentially good indicator of game play being fundamentally broken, somewhere.

[Henry Buzz Gerber]

hmmm. Very good topic, military intel can be very, very wrong. What your facing and battle location can vary from second to second. I would say it was fair to have the choice of a mech and 1 at random to spice things up. I would say you also push for 2 loadouts for your dropping mech and possibly random drop damage or a malfunction or two.