70 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

Lets discuss about MGs, Flamers and LBX.

Here is a vid from "fromhell2k", a clan mate of mine, who is demonstrating them in the training grounds:

Here you can see the effect of MGs.

Its astonishing how effective they are isn't it?

To counter the urban legend:

"LBX can do 80 damage max if its crits!"

No, that is actually not true. MG does 0.04 dmg per bullet. Flamer also. LBX got 10 damage spreaded into 10 pellets. You can only crit ITEMS, the damage is still the same.

Greetings Wolves

[Sifright]

WolvesX, on 12 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Lets discuss about MGs, Flamers and LBX.

Here is a vid from "fromhell2k", a clan mate of mine, who is demonstrating them in the training grounds:

Here you can see the effect of MGs.

Its astonishing how effective they are isn't it?

To counter the urban legend:

"LBX can do 80 damage max if its crits!"

No, that is actually not true. MG does 0.04 dmg per bullet. Flamer also. LBX got 10 damage spreaded into 10 pellets. You can only crit ITEMS, the damage is still the same.

Greetings Wolves

u post is wrong all dose wapeons r 4 crit sleeking n nut 4 fytin

[Deathlike]

MGs killing Atlases are an urban legend. It has no place in a FLAMER BASED SOCIETY!

Edited by Deathlike, 12 March 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Still looks to me like the small lasers are much preferred, plus you don't have to hold them on target as long or as continuously over the course of minutes. Doesn't matter what you're driving, that Atlas would have had you dead if it could shoot back. The biggest issue still is the massive damage to the rear torso that occurs with front center torso damage.

-k

[Waverider]

Well,

You can clearly see that the Atlas lose both center torso weapons as soon as it lose the armor... So... I would use lasers so strip armor then disable the enemy weapons in seconds with the MG...

You are just using the weapons the wrong way!!!

If you equip a MG looking for damage you're plain dumb

Compare the time needed to disable the weapons combining laser and MG and you will render an enemy useless in seconds. When I play in groups we just ignore weaponless mechs to focus fire on other enemies. If you combine team play with communication the MG can be VERY useful. Focus fire on the enemies parts that have weapons, order your MG team mate to disable those weapons and go to the next target!

[Sifright]

Waverider, on 12 March 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Well,

You can clearly see that the Atlas lose both center torso weapons as soon as it lose the armor... So... I would use lasers so strip armor then disable the enemy weapons in seconds with the MG...

You are just using the weapons the wrong way!!!

If you equip a MG looking for damage you're plain dumb

Compare the time needed to disable the weapons combining laser and MG and you will render an enemy useless in seconds. When I play in groups we just ignore weaponless mechs to focus fire on other enemies. If you combine team play with communication the MG can be VERY useful. Focus fire on the enemies parts that have weapons, order your MG team mate to disable those weapons and go to the next target!

dis gye no whut he tlakin but. c critsleekers wapeons. nut 4 damiage dolering.

dis slide of da argluement is da winor.

[Josef Nader]

What machine guns are actually for, and exceptionally good at. They deal, on average, 5 DPS to internal components and they can strip weapons and equipment out of a section before your big guns even have time to recycle (notice how the enemy Atlas' AC20 was gone before my AC20 even recycled). If you waste them against armor, that's your own stupid fault. Bring a bigger gun. If you use them to steal weapons and components from your enemies, you're using them right.

[stjobe]

Waverider, on 12 March 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

If you equip a MG looking for damage you're plain dumb

And that pretty much sums up the issue some of us has with MGs, that they are treated differently than all the other weapons.

Every other weapon can be equipped "looking for damage", but not the MG.

Why is that, and why do you want to keep it that way?

[FupDup]

Josef Nader, on 12 March 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

What machine guns are actually for, and exceptionally good at. They deal, on average, 5 DPS to internal components and they can strip weapons and equipment out of a section before your big guns even have time to recycle (notice how the enemy Atlas' AC20 was gone before my AC20 even recycled). If you waste them against armor, that's your own stupid fault. Bring a bigger gun. If you use them to steal weapons and components from your enemies, you're using them right.

RNG means that there are times every match when you can hose unarmored sections for several moments and not crit a damned thing. If the rate was 100% then their "component stripper" purpose might actually be fulfilled consistently and not rely on lucky moments.

Edited by FupDup, 12 March 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[Josef Nader]

FupDup, on 12 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

RNG means that there are times every match when you can hose unarmored sections for several moments and not crit a damned thing. If the rate was 100% then their "crit seeker" purpose might actually be fulfilled.

Their rate is a 70% critical chance -per bullet- with a rate of 10 bullets per second with a crit dealing 0.5 damage, 1 damage, or 1.5 damage depending on which crits they land on. Trust me, the crit chance is high enough and fast enough that 7/10 of those bullets per second are going to crit, with a minimum damage of 3.5 damage per second. MGs knock out internal components extremely quickly. Depending on how many components are in that section, that's a component every 3 seconds, guaranteed. It's usually faster than that.


Oh, and these numbers are -per machine gun-.

Machine guns are exceptionally good at what they do, and the RNG doesn't factor into it noticeably at all.

[Roland]

Waverider, on 12 March 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

If you equip a MG looking for damage you're plain dumb

The only person who is really threatened by you carrying machine guns, is you yourself.

Basically, MG's aren't gonna do anything of consequence to any OTHER mech.. however, what they can do, potentially, is kill your own mech through an ammo explosion. There's actually an infinitely higher probability that you will be killed by your MG ammo, than kill someone else with it.

Consider that, the next time you think about putting machine guns on your mech. The odds are higher that they will kill YOU, than anyone else.

[FupDup]

Josef Nader, on 12 March 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Their rate is a 70% critical chance -per bullet- with a rate of 10 bullets per second with a crit dealing 0.5 damage, 1 damage, or 1.5 damage depending on which crits they land on. Trust me, the crit chance is high enough and fast enough that 7/10 of those bullets per second are going to crit, with a minimum damage of 3.5 damage per second. MGs knock out internal components extremely quickly. Depending on how many components are in that section, that's a component every 3 seconds, guaranteed. It's usually faster than that.


Oh, and these numbers are -per machine gun-.

Machine guns are exceptionally good at what they do, and the RNG doesn't factor into it noticeably at all.

Which is definitely why I can waste hundreds of MG bullets on a single exposed section of an enemy mech using my 2 LL + 2 MG Raven 4X and not get a single component destruction until I blast it off with my 2 LL? Centurions, for instance, seem to virtually never lose their torso-mounted weapons no matter how hard I MG them. Stalkers and Atlai seem pretty damn resistant as well...


Yes, luck does factor into it. Anything that is not 100% is luck by definition. 70% chance per bullet might make for 7/10 crits on paper, but in reality it doesn't matter a damn. Sometimes you can get 10/10 crits, sometimes 0/0.

Edited by FupDup, 12 March 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Josef Nader]

See, you aren't trying to kill other mechs with machine guns. That's the mistake everyone is making. You're trying to maim the other mech. Removing his ability to fight back. It's a lot nicer to take on that Atlas 1v1 when his AC20 has been knocked out. You can either waste time trying to blow out his side torso, or you can strip his armor and knock it out almost instantly as soon as you're through the armor with machine guns. They're a support weapon, not a damage weapon. We have plenty of damage weapons. Not everything has to be purely DPS.

FupDup, on 12 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Which is definitely why I can waste hundreds of MG bullets on a single exposed section of an enemy mech using my 2 LL + 2 MG Raven 4X and not get a single component destruction until I blast it off with my 2 LL? Centurions, for instance, seem to virtually never lose their torso-mounted weapons no matter how hard I MG them. Stalkers and Atlai seem pretty damn resistant as well...


Yes, luck does factor into it. Anything that is not 100% is luck by definition.

You're either too far out, not landing the MG shots in that section, or you aren't looking for the right thing. I'm not sure if you get component destruction rewards for every component you knock out, either. Watch his weapon loadout readout and see which weapons turn red as you lay on the MG fire. That's what you're going for. Red weapons.

Edited by Josef Nader, 12 March 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[FupDup]

Josef Nader, on 12 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

See, you aren't trying to kill other mechs with machine guns. That's the mistake everyone is making. You're trying to maim the other mech. Removing his ability to fight back. It's a lot nicer to take on that Atlas 1v1 when his AC20 has been knocked out. You can either waste time trying to blow out his side torso, or you can strip his armor and knock it out almost instantly as soon as you're through the armor with machine guns. They're a support weapon, not a damage weapon. We have plenty of damage weapons. Not everything has to be purely DPS.

In case you forgot to read my post, I NEVER SAID I WAS TRYING TO DESTROY ARMOR. I was hosing down unarmored torsos of various mechs and not critting a thing most of the time.

Edited by FupDup, 12 March 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Roland]

Josef Nader, on 12 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

See, you aren't trying to kill other mechs with machine guns. That's the mistake everyone is making.

If you aren't trying to kill other mechs, then you are doing it wrong.

The idea that you should be trying to maim other mechs, when you can just take GOOD weapons and kill them outright, is foolhardy.

If you have breeched a mech's armor, then you are better off just KILLING THE MECH.

[Josef Nader]

@ FupDup I was responding to the guy above you with the first half of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Roland, on 12 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

If you aren't trying to kill other mechs, then you are doing it wrong.

The idea that you should be trying to maim other mechs, when you can just take GOOD weapons and kill them outright, is foolhardy.

If you have breeched a mech's armor, then you are better off just KILLING THE MECH.

That's a short-sighted and foolhardy concept. Maiming the mech makes it easier to kill it, and unless the guy on the other end is a dumbarse he's going to be spreading the damage around his armor. Expose his side torso? Strip his weapons out of that. That's that much less damage he can lay onto you.

Again, allow me to illustrate:



Compare the time difference between only "real" weapons and using machine guns. The same thing is accomplished (ignoring that the Atlas died in the first one because stock Atlai put AC20 ammo in their side torsos herp derp. No player-built mech does that), the Atlas loses his AC20. One takes up far more time and ammo, the other one takes less than 4 seconds and lets you move on to shooting other sections of that mech.

Machine guns can be the thing that swings battles in your favor. I end up fighting crippled mechs far more often with my MGs, and it's saved me from a lot of damage.

Edited by Josef Nader, 12 March 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Team Leader]

I just love it when people find mechs that are already torn open, bleeding oil and sparking, splash it with some machine guns and say "LOOK GUYS! The MG took out all his weapons! You're just USING IT WRONG!" and then it takes them another 5 minutes of MG fire to finish him off. Stupid.

I demand an alternative for machine guns that weigh the same, don't "crit seek", and actually do real, armor stripping damage, finally giving variants that rely on them usable firepower.


Also, I was using a flamer the other day, and I found out it SUCKS at crit seeking. At least the MG does that right, the flamer literally does nothing.

[FupDup]

Josef Nader, on 12 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

You're either too far out, not landing the MG shots in that section, or you aren't looking for the right thing. I'm not sure if you get component destruction rewards for every component you knock out, either. Watch his weapon loadout readout and see which weapons turn red as you lay on the MG fire. That's what you're going for. Red weapons.

That's the method I've always used to gauge because the crit XP/C-Bill notification doesn't usually appear. I can chase an unarmored Centurion halfway across a map with MGs and his 3 SRM6 in the torso are still operational. Same goes for Wang CT lasers.

Josef Nader, on 12 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

I was responding to the guy above you with the first half of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I guess I responded to your post before you edited it to include the other guy. Whoops.

Edited by FupDup, 12 March 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Mechteric]

we already know the DPS of small laser is 1.0 compared to Machine Gun's 0.4. If the MG were bumped up to 1.0 DPS it would fix it.

[FupDup]

Team Leader, on 12 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

I demand an alternative for machine guns that weigh the same, don't "crit seek", and actually do real, armor stripping damage, finally giving variants that rely on them usable firepower.

How about this:

Autocannon/1
Weight: 2.5 tons
Damage: 1
Heat: 0.7
Reload time: 0.4
Slots: 1
Ammo per ton: 100
Effective range: ~840m
Maximum range: ~2520m
Cost: 100,000 C-Bills
Weapon speed: 2200


*Numbers subject to change if deemed OP/UP.

Edited by FupDup, 12 March 2013 - 08:50 AM.