16 replies to this topic

[topgun505]

So there have been plenty of LRM threads at this point. And the frequent responses are:

Take AMS. On this point I agree. If you travel slower than 100kph you really should have it. It doesn't weight a lot and any little bit can help.

The other response is typically "Use terrain". Ok. Yes ... that works ... IF you are facing ONE LRM-based unit.

That is too narrow of a view. If you are playing a pre-made you will generally face multiple LRM-based units, and they will be positioned > 200m apart so if one LRM gets harassed by a Scout/brawler, the 2nd unit can usually cover its counterpart. The below represents 2 LRM boats. One stationed at yellow and one at red initially. Both can duck behind cover immediately if need be and pop back out quickly and both cover most approaches. If need be either mech/group can shift no more than 1 grid to the secondary positions to cover other areas that are blind-spots to the first. Meanwhile 1 or 2 Splatcats (or more?) can cover the cave entrance to blunt any advance there. That still leaves half of the team to be whatever .. scouts for tag/targeting and/or brawlers to protect the LRM boats from anything fast that might manage to get close enough.

But the point is ... where below can you advance using terrain where you won't get pummeled but still are close enough that you might do some good. Bear in mind the LRM boats don't even necessarily have to be out in the open where a sniper might get a shot on them ... if the scouts are targeting they can fire indirectly.

So ... thoughts on this example?

[One Medic Army]

So the enemy is spread across 4 locations.
Scout to find this out, and mass attack one of them, probably the position by the ship.

Or you can just play pop and shoot to force the LRM boats to keep behind cover, thus preventing them using Artemis or TAG.

[Yankee77]

One Medic Army, on 12 March 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

So the enemy is spread across 4 locations.
Scout to find this out, and mass attack one of them, probably the position by the ship.

Or you can just play pop and shoot to force the LRM boats to keep behind cover, thus preventing them using Artemis or TAG.

Exactly. If you let the enemy team spread out their LRM mechs that well, and don't go adn eat them for lunch peicemeal, then you've got a problem. Don't make a mistake that LRM mechs are invincible machines of death, they can be ganked as well as anything else... more so when you know how to maneuver to approach them.

But if you find yourself in the situation described in your post, then looks like the enemy out-maneuvered and out fought you. They deserve the win.

Plus that map is an excellent example of how LRMs add tactical depth to the game. Very impressive.

Edited by Itkovian, 12 March 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[topgun505]

That is 3 locations. 2 LRM boats and the Splats. The other two locations are a 2nd location that each LRM boat can move to quickly Those positions are close enough to their base that they can get to those positions before the opposition can intervene. The only thing that could get there before they set up are scouts and that LRM team have 4 mechs which can be used to cover them (probably 2 scouts and 2 fast brawlers).

Maybe if you overwhelmed one group with like 4 scouts that might work but I don't see many teams with that many fast movers.

No. They aren't invincible. But you will be hard pressed to find a path in to them that won't lose you at least 2 mechs on the way in from LRMs right from the get go before you even get to brawl range.

[Theevenger]

Um. You realize that an LRM fired from any of those positions can't fly to most of those locations before someone in that location could go behind a hill or something, right? That diagram only works for weapons with flight times less than a second or so. Exposure times are often low, and you need to maintain lock for more than 10 seconds from max range to get your hit. That requires that you or someone else has targetting info, and that the target is not behind cover when your missiles finally get there.

[Chavette]

Send me the other maps too, and then delete this thread and the files

[topgun505]

Not the point. Yes they can take cover. But they also can't do any good back in those safe areas either. The question stands. How do you advance without taking unacceptable losses on the way in?

[eaglemaster42]

ECM tank maybe? Personally I'm a sniper so I shoot my gauss rifles at them until they get behind cover (or die) and advance while they're hiding. Doesn't really work against organized teams though without more coordination from my teammates

[CMGrendel]

Are you telling me that if your enemy outflank you with long range attack systems whilst you remain in place, you'll get killed? Because everyone from Sun Tzu onwards will agree.

They also suggest that if you put the eyes of the scouts out, the enemy will be blind.

Nothing is stopping you from staying behind cover and killing the scouts as they try and spot for the LRM boats. As they are scouts, your superior numbers and heavier mechs should drop them with ease. Unless you chase them out of cover.

If you can maintain discipline and kill the scouts, then all you need to do from then onwards is move carefully, have massed AMS or ECM.

If your issue is that the team that you are with are not sufficiently disciplined enough to avoid Leeroying towards missile boats, then there are even game mechanics to help you with that! Try turning your mech when being hit. Try not running directly towards the enemy. Try not running 400m across open water to bear hug them.

The capture point was put in the maps for a reason too!

[Vrekgar]

ECM dive the Missile boats. Even disrupting one will allow your force to move in and engage hostiles. Priority should be to destroy the Splatcats as fast as possible and then work their way down the list. Close range engaging of the missile boat closest to the main push will free up ECM to aid in disrupting the other boat.

Option 2:

Heavy brawler setup with ECM close support. Use the cover of the cave to push a force straight through the archway. By appearing so far to the side you give the team a window to defeat the close boat without the supporting fire of the far boat.

Option 3:

Sniper with heavy defensive screen. Use long range direct fire to suppress LRM boats. Depending on number and reaction to fire of the boats you can push or defeat anything attempting to intrude your side of the field. By staying at very long range you give the maximum amount of time to target for enemy missiles, thus maximizing your teams ability to evade. You could also have ECM cover on your snipers to further aid in blocking missile fire.

Option 4:

Bumrush. High speed maximum force assault with high priority to destroying missile boats. Engage in close as quickly as possible.

Option 5:

Counter battery Missiles. Establish your own points of fire for missiles and engage in Boat on Boat fire.

[One Medic Army]

topgun505, on 12 March 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Not the point. Yes they can take cover. But they also can't do any good back in those safe areas either. The question stands. How do you advance without taking unacceptable losses on the way in?

By advancing from one piece of cover to the next.
Was that a trick question?

Alternatively advancing while forcing the LRM user into cover via sniping.

Edited by One Medic Army, 12 March 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[topgun505]

I'll will take each response in turn:

Vrekgar, on 12 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

ECM dive the Missile boats. Even disrupting one will allow your force to move in and engage hostiles. Priority should be to destroy the Splatcats as fast as possible and then work their way down the list. Close range engaging of the missile boat closest to the main push will free up ECM to aid in disrupting the other boat.


Option 2:

Heavy brawler setup with ECM close support. Use the cover of the cave to push a force straight through the archway. By appearing so far to the side you give the team a window to defeat the close boat without the supporting fire of the far boat.

You can assume the LRM boats and Scouts all have TAG so ECM will not help you inside 750m. If you come down the D6 path or E5 road the red LRM boat has you. Cave rushing will be problematic as you will be exiting the tunnel single file and I don't know of ANY mech that could withstand 2 Splatcats focusing on them for more than 1 salvo. You would have to have a majority of your team going this route and they would need to be reasonably fast (i.e. your team would almost have to be custom-tailored to defeat this, which is unlikely). Though this might work yes.

Vrekgar, on 12 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Option 3:

Sniper with heavy defensive screen. Use long range direct fire to suppress LRM boats. Depending on number and reaction to fire of the boats you can push or defeat anything attempting to intrude your side of the field. By staying at very long range you give the maximum amount of time to target for enemy missiles, thus maximizing your teams ability to evade. You could also have ECM cover on your snipers to further aid in blocking missile fire.

Yes you can suppress them but the moment you begin your push they can pop back around get off at least 1 or 2 good volleys on one of your heavy hitters and likely toast it before you make much headway. And the scouts can always hop around the boat or hill to TAG while the boat stays behind cover and indirects. If you stay at maximum range then you won't get anything accomplished unless you have a sniper-centric team. Even then it may be probematic.

Vrekgar, on 12 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Option 4:

Bumrush. High speed maximum force assault with high priority to destroying missile boats. Engage in close as quickly as possible.

Possibly the best solution if your team is fast. But you are almost certain to lose at least 1 mech to each LRM boat in the process on your way in thus starting the brawl 2 or 3 mechs short. And I know plenty of LRM builds that have plenty of short range brawl capability (Stalkers) so you will probably starting the end engagement at a disadvantage.

Vrekgar, on 12 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Option 5:

Counter battery Missiles. Establish your own points of fire for missiles and engage in Boat on Boat fire.

ERROR. If your answer to a given strategy is more of the same strategy as the optimum way to defeat it that is a clear sign that the mechanic/tactic is out of balance in the game.

Overall some good ideas there but none I can imagine are optimal.
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What cover do you see on that map that isn't covered by one of those fire zones that is close enough for you to do any good for your team by staying in that position?

One Medic Army, on 12 March 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

By advancing from one piece of cover to the next.
Was that a trick question?

Alternatively advancing while forcing the LRM user into cover via sniping.

Edited by topgun505, 12 March 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[One Medic Army]

topgun505, on 12 March 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

What cover do you see on that map that isn't covered by one of those fire zones that is close enough for you to do any good for your team by staying in that position?

G4->G5->H6
There's plenty of cover on the water.
If you're a stock speed Atlas you may take one volley in between each piece of cover, but really charging the LRMs is best left to the faster mechs.

[Psikez]

Just like any other problem in MWO the answer is you should've brought 8 dragons with gauss rifles

[Grayseven]

Your premise is faulty. You can spread mechs out, but you are not going to get full coverage of all areas with LRM's. There are no areas you can't get to without cover of some form or another. I don't care if you are facing 8 LRM boats, you can not cover every avenue of approach to another area of the map. Oh, sure, you can get targeted at times as you move between cover, but you will not be 100% vulnerable on any map.

Patience is the key against LRMs. Sure, you may want to close inside of 180m fast, but in all honesty a steady leapfrog approach works best. It doesn't take much cover to protect against incoming LRM's as any Jenner hugging a cap point can tell you. Stack up your AMS equipped units and use them as an umbrella as you move from cover to cover. If you have to, take the long way around. Distance is almost as good as cover against LRM's. They have to target you to shoot you after all.

LRM boaters can get tunnel vision, sending salvo after salvo at the unit they can see regardless of whether or not they are hitting. Those big smoky streams of rockets are easy to back track to the launch point and if you can get behind their 180 target arc you can sneak right up on them with impunity.

And once you get to a point of cover with LOS to a boat, you can pop out after a salvo hits your cover, blast the boat and move back to cover before the next salvo lands. Eventually the boat will move. The worst thing to do is let a LRM boat sit still and fire missiles.

ECM lights are great for giving LRM boats fits. Their speed lets them get in close and the ECM gives them the protection to do so.

Also remember that those LRM boats don't live in a world of their own. Their team mates are going to be doing everything in their power to get you before you get their LRM boats. When you have to engage the non-LRM mechs you should be focusing fire on one at a time from cover of their LRMs. Do not let an enemy mech rush push you out of cover or you will find yourself on the receiving end of your last LRM barrage...

In short, your coverage map shows arcs of coverage that, were the map flat, would be devastating. Since there are plenty of hills and valleys on that map those arcs of coverage do not mean a thing.

[liku]

Real boat are pretty slow. Any light mech will be at the marked location before any lrmboat.
All i see is much theories (but i like is as i like also the map you've done) in 8 man or premade i dont see that many splash. .

You assault are at risk due to slow speed but that's the job of the scouts and the faster mech to open the path ;-)

[topgun505]

@ der & liku There are likely 2 Raven 3Ls and 2 fast brawlers those Ravens will have to contend with (1 set at each group and each set is only a grid or so away from each other so they can zip in probably in 30 seconds to assist the other group). Assuming pilots of equal skill, your 2 Ravens will die trying to do the harassment.

@Greyseven. Hence the reason for the secondary fire positions which the LRM boats can move to quickly. If opposition moves to blind spots the LRM boats shift to cover those areas. Example. Try and hide behind the E6 hill and the yellow group moves to their secondary position and has you dead to rights.

der langsamere, on 12 March 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Also GOOD raven 3l and any ecm fast mech pilot will core the **** out of them before they can get a reliable tag and try go get the LRMs to catch up to them