32 replies to this topic

[Hammerfinn]

CMGrendel, on 12 March 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I was under the impression that state rewind affected game code, rather than just one specific weapon usage instance.

If you read the command chair post, it mentions that this is for instant hit weapons--lasers, mgs, and flamers, and that rewind is coming for missiles and ballistics and ppcs soon ®

[Royalewithcheese]

Shifty Eyes, on 12 March 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

I did notice that AC shots are server-side, with a slight delay between the trigger and the shell leaving the muzzle. I think that's a large part of what was throwing me off. I hope they change it to state rewind eventually.

If you're getting the firing delay, one thing to keep in mind is (if I understand how this works correctly) that it also impacts the rate of fire of stuff like the AC/2, so you may be getting less bang for your buck there.

[Terror Teddy]

Allister Rathe, on 12 March 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

AC/10's are not useless by any stretch of the imagination

You forgot the 2,5 cycle rate compared to 4

[Allister Rathe]

ragingmunkyz, on 12 March 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

Fair enough, I'll concede the point that when you can't fit a gauss or an AC/20, the AC/10 can be a good choice.

I have not yet personally encountered this problem, so I tend to go with the gauss or the '20, and I still think that if you can choose one of the other two, you'll be better off. You yourself call it a "poor man's gauss," but I feel like its in a strange middle ground between the other two weapons, and I usually know if I need the range or I need the brawling punch, so I pick the one that is best for the job.

I just don't feel like the minor drop in weight or the minor spike in range makes up for the advantages of the other two, but these are just my personally opinions on the matter, you're welcome to yours.

Your opinion is valid as well, I just found the statement that AC/10's are useless to be entirely untrue. The best part about the AC/10 as compared to the Gauss Rifle when looking for a long range ballistic with good striking power is the fact that it's much less volatile than a Gauss rifle. Granted the ammo can explode like any Autocannon, but compared to the Gauss' seven slots with only 3 health that will explode and take out the section, it's just lighter and more reliable, and in general a better weapon for people unaccustomed to ballistic weapons.

It is a little bit in a limbo between a brawler weapon and a sniper weapon, but I've had great success with it in both my Flame and my TBT-7K because it's range and fire rate make it great as a skirmisher's ballistic.

The way I see it, the ballistics break down like this:

AC/2 and UAC/5 are for rapid fire suppression
AC/5 is sort of in a weird place, I can think of very little applications where a UAC/5 wouldn't serve better.
AC/10 is a skirmisher's weapon
AC/20 is a brawler's go to haymaker
Gauss is a sniper's bread and butter.

Edited by Allister Rathe, 12 March 2013 - 10:36 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

There are some points made in this thread that I disagree with.

1) Ballistics are not ineffecient or weaker than energy weapons.
The big boon Ballistics have is that they need a lot less heat sinks to run. That means that if you consider the total weight investment including heat sinks and ammo, they are highly competitive with energy weapons.
Missiles tend to be even more efficient, but LRMs seem to be unable to utilize most of their potential. Short Range Missiles can be used very effeciently on several levels - good damage to weight ratio, and good hit-ratio. Of course, that's when you use them at the ranges they work.

Spoiler

2) Ballistics are difficult to aim.
Maybe I am a Ballistic Sniper or something (ha, with a 60 % accuracy? Laughable Sniper I'd say), but if I look at my statistics and compare the number of attacks and the resulting expected damage and the actual damage inflicted, I am about as precise with my ballistic weapons as with my laser. Sure, the Accuracy stat for the Laser is higher, but it counts as a hit if I hit just for one tick.

Compare this:
AC/20: 431 Shots Fired, 265 hits. Damage dealt: 5290 damage. Expected Damage for 431 shots is 8620.
That means I deal 63 % of the damage I could deal if I hit with every of my shots.

Medium Laser: 1068 Shots, 944 Hits, 2566 Damage Dealt. Expected Damage for 1068 shots: 5340. That means i deal only 48 % of the damage I could deal if I hit with every tick of the medium laser.

SRM6: 7032 shots, 3743 Hits, 8114 Damage Dealt. Expected Damage for 7032 Shots: 17.580
That means I deal only 45 % of the damage I could deal if I hit with every single missile.

So by this, I am actually the most accurate with the AC/20!

Maybe this is significantly different with other ballistics (longer range attacks are generally more difficult to take, and a fast firing weapon like the UAC/5 doesn't allow you to aim for long if you actually want to utilize its DPS).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 March 2013 - 11:40 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

You are trying to build a Cataphract 4X? Here's mine:

2 AC10s. AMS. SSRM2. 2 ML. STD 250 engine. 10 DHS. ES Structure. 432 points of armor. CASE (since I have to put ammo in my side torso).

I carry 4 tons for the ACs, which is a bit low for relying on them as your main damage source but necessary to make room for the ton each of AMS and Streak ammo. If I were doing a premade drop I'd be inclined to remove the AMS and half a ton of armor for another 2 tons of AC10 ammo, but I PUG too much to make that really safe.

I've had quite a few high-quality games in this mech. You might consider giving it a try. I don't like using XLs in Cataphracts since they have such huge side torsos, and that'd be the only realistic way to fit dual Gauss or quad UAC5 or whatever in the thing, so I went with AC10s as a sort of compromise solution, and have found them to work well.

I also have a Catapult K2 with dual AC10s, 6 tons of ammo, and a pair of MPL for backup. I don't enjoy it as much, and did try out a Gaussapult build, but it just wasn't working for me and I found the AC10s again to be just a bit more useable. I think it's the rate of fire advantage.

[Zypher]

Keep in mind besides dealing with leading the target because of the round travel time, and dealing with fire delay which can be exacerbated by lag, you must also deal with weapons convergence issues.

If you want to practice, as said before stick to one weapon type, but also stick to torso mounted ballistic slots first. Arm mounted ballistic slots are far worse for convergence than their torso counterparts. I would only suggested moving to arm mounted ballistic slots after you have mastered them in the torsos.

In any case, if you haven't, I would look up issues on convergence as it's easier to know when you are going to hit if you understand this mechanic.

[Th0rsten]

What works pretty well for me on the 4x is 4 ac5 with 6 tons of ammo( you can do this with xl255 and add 2ml or just use the stock engine)

Put all of them in two weapon groups and set one to chain fire. You can keep chainfiring until you register hits and know how much to lead and then just fire all of them continously.

Aiming balistic weapons is definitely really different compared to the lasers. Probably a matter of personnel preference. I find the fact that the whole damage is focused on one point (ignoring lbx) makes up for the more difficult leading. Mixing them is not a good idea imho. In the heat of the battle you don't want to think about different projectile speeds.

[Whompity]

I love my autocannons. Pretty much all of my builds are constructed around the biggest one I can reasonably fit in the mech. My go-to mech is still a 'pract 2X with an AC20. The best way to "figure out" AC's is just to use them, heavily. The firing delay, shell speed and all of that will become second nature after a while. With a big AC, since you are carrying only abour 25-30 ammo, a big part is picking your shots. Don't spray and pray. With the reload time on an AC20, you'll get out of sync with the game action and get frustrated. After a while, you'll get used to knowing the best time to take the shot.

And seeing a freaking Atlas wrenched into a quarter turn after taking one in the shoulder is very satisfying. I can only imagine how that looks from their cockpit! And having even a fluke shot tag a Jenner in the cockpit and instagibbing it is fantastic too.

Edited by Olivia Maybach, 13 March 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I can confirm that, too. My accuracy has gone up a few percentage points since I first started playing my current loadout for a while. (AC20, 3 SRM6s, 2 MLs, AMS, ECM, Atlas DDC)

I am not sure how much I will retain when I switch to a different mech for a while, though.

[Oto Kanon]

Allister Rathe, on 12 March 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Your opinion is valid as well, I just found the statement that AC/10's are useless to be entirely untrue. The best part about the AC/10 as compared to the Gauss Rifle when looking for a long range ballistic with good striking power is the fact that it's much less volatile than a Gauss rifle. Granted the ammo can explode like any Autocannon, but compared to the Gauss' seven slots with only 3 health that will explode and take out the section, it's just lighter and more reliable, and in general a better weapon for people unaccustomed to ballistic weapons.

It is a little bit in a limbo between a brawler weapon and a sniper weapon, but I've had great success with it in both my Flame and my TBT-7K because it's range and fire rate make it great as a skirmisher's ballistic.

The way I see it, the ballistics break down like this:

AC/2 and UAC/5 are for rapid fire suppression
AC/5 is sort of in a weird place, I can think of very little applications where a UAC/5 wouldn't serve better.
AC/10 is a skirmisher's weapon
AC/20 is a brawler's go to haymaker
Gauss is a sniper's bread and butter.

I do believe that the AC/5 rate of fire is a bit on the low side. It could probably use a slight ROF increase. That said, it is an incredibly low heat per second weapon all things considering. If you want something low heat to compliment all your lasers but cannot put in a Gauss Rifle or if you are not yet running DHS, you can consider using some AC/5s. They are relatively cheap too!

[LordBraxton]

Lagshield and firing delays aside, aiming Autocannons is all about practice and muscle memory.

Also I find sticking with one type of AC for a while will help you master each one in turn, just keep trying eventually youll be keeping UAC5s on moving targets on Alpine at 900m

[Shifty Eyes]

Good 'phract build ideas. I'll be trying them out.

I seem to have gotten better. I'm managing 300 damage in my Cicada mounting a single UAC/5 when I get into a decent position (torso mount helps with convergence and aiming a lot). I'm still thinking that the AC/2 might be underpowered or not as useful. Two AC/2's weigh more than a single UAC/5, and fire at about the same rate (if chain fired, and barring some horrible jamming luck with the UAC/5), for an overall decrease in dps, increase in heat and more damage spread. I can only manage to scrape 200 damage tops when I use 2x AC/2 instead of a single UAC/5. I suppose the muzzle velocity is higher on the AC/2, but for me that doesn't make up for the cons.

Edited by Shifty Eyes, 13 March 2013 - 01:20 PM.