448 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

DCLXVI, on 14 March 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

Dam PUGs just standing around doing nothing while the meat shield gets wrecked!!! Then Tked him after he broke away!!!!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 March 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Yep. Lights do it better.

We have ALL seen light mechs run past the entire enemy team, get shot at by all of them, and escape without barely a scratch on them. Go try that in an Atlas and see how long you last. Maybe 10 seconds, if that? lol.

Atlases do have a lot of armor... but when you realize that 70% of that armor can be bypassed just by drilling its center torso... suddenly its not very impressive anymore. Especially since that center torso is soooo easy to hit.

This is just terribly wrong. Any Atlas that dies with it's CT cored and little damage anywhere else is just doing it wrong. And if you are playing a decent 8 man, no light is running through the whole team without dying. Net code is not that bad anymore.

[Elandyll]

Josef Nader, on 14 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

If you let the enemy hit nothing but your center torso, you're a trash pilot. Torso twisting and damage management is one of the most important skills in this game. Of course your mechs are going to pop like a balloon if you just let people wail on your CT.

Only noobs will let a "torso twisting" Atlas impair their hits tbh.

Arms
Stalker difference: 12 pts.
Awesome difference: 16pts.

Still inconsequential. The Atlas can take "a little more" punishment at the cost of being a giant target and super slow.

I maintain that it's about being smart and that just "soaking up damage" for your teammates is a terrible way to play.

Edited by Elandyll, 14 March 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Elandyll, on 14 March 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Only noobs will let a "torso twisting" Atlas impair their hits tbh.

Arms
Stalker difference: 12 pts.
Awesome difference: 16pts.

Still inconsequential. The Atlas can take "a little more" punishment at the cost of being a giant target and super slow.

I maintain that it's about being smart and that just "soaking up damage" for your teammates is a terrible way to play.

Josef Nader, on 13 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

People seem to not know what the word tank means. Tanking in regards to video game is a matter of controlling attention, not just soaking buckets of damage. I don't know a single player in this game who will ignore an Atlas unless they are being directly attacked by a more immediate threat. Even then, Atlai are -always- priority targets, so as long as the Atlas is present in the fight he -will- be the center of the fight. You can't survive by just meatheading through attacks, but you -can- control enemy aggression through careful play. The whole point of tanking is to be the guy the enemies are trying to kill, not just soaking damage. The longer you can keep their attention, the better you've done your job. Again, if you die before you've lost every section of your mech and dealt 500 or more damage, you've failed as an Atlas.

You're a tank. Be a tank. Tanking does not mean brawling. It means being the center of attention. Just like light mechs should be scouts. I don't care what you're packing, you still move faster and can cover more ground than the rest of us. We need your eyes to help us spot enemy movements. Play your role.

Josef Nader, on 14 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

And my point is that nobody understands what a tank is supposed to be in video game terms. It doesn't mean you can stand there like a lump and take hits. It means that it takes the enemy a long time to kill you, and you are their primary target for as long as possible. In this regard, the Atlas can take a sickening amount of punishment if piloted correctly. I.E. like a proper tank.

Good tanks are hard to find. Ask anyone who plays MMOs. Shoot, good heavies are hard to find in TF2. Too many people use the heavy like a damage-soaking meathead and get blown to bits in seconds. Tanking is about controlling enemy aggression, not about taking all the hits.

The Atlas is more of a tank than the Stalker or Awesome by far. It can take more punishment when piloted properly, and is much better at controlling enemy attention. It's also SIGNIFICANTLY harder to kill than the Awesome and Stalker, thanks to superior hitboxes and lack of XL engine (vs the awesome. If you put an XL in an Atlas, I will end you) and significantly better twist and larger arms (vs the stalker).

The Atlas is the best Tank in MWO. There's no arguing that.

Edited by Josef Nader, 14 March 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[Sheriff x]

KinLuu, on 13 March 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

There is no "tank" role in this game. Everything dies in seconds.

The job of an atlas is doing as much damage as possible. Drawing fire is the job of the fast lights - because in MWO evading damage is much better than taking damage. And much easier.

The "OP" probably tried to wrap his head around this for a few minutes before steam began to blow out of his ears.

Well summarized, and absolutely correct.

[Royalewithcheese]

Regardless of the applicability of a term from a completely different genre of games with completely different tactics to MWO, can't we all agree on the following?

lurms

Atlas

pick 1

[Elandyll]

Josef Nader, on 14 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

The Atlas is more of a tank than the Stalker or Awesome by far. It can take more punishment when piloted properly, and is much better at controlling enemy attention. It's also SIGNIFICANTLY harder to kill than the Awesome and Stalker, thanks to superior hitboxes and lack of XL engine (vs the awesome. If you put an XL in an Atlas, I will end you) and significantly better twist and larger arms (vs the stalker).

The Atlas is the best Tank in MWO. There's no arguing that.

To use your own analogy, Tanking is not just about taking damage (which is my point, and how we both differ with the OP).
Has the Atlas more Armor and internals to go through? Yes, a little bit (I proved that the difference is pretty much between 1 to 2 gauss slugs generally per location).
But given the amount of hate and attention they generate on the front line, and how slow and lumbering they are, all a "Tank" Atlas will generally do is allow a few of his teammates to score 1 to 2 more hits while he is getting destroyed.
If the Atlas, otoh, can maintain that hate and use cover intelligently, twist torso but also use terrain and manage to remain surrounded by a team that actually supports him, he will live far longer. That is not the proposition of the OP.

Also, if an Atlas pilot choses to be a LRM platform, go ahead, no problem with that.
In fact I'd say that a DDC with ECM + Gauss + ERPPC + TAG + LRMs makes a hell of a long range killer, is hard to target/ get a lock on and also provides umbrella for his other long range teammates.

Edited by Elandyll, 14 March 2013 - 10:38 AM.

[Sheriff x]

Royalewithcheese, on 14 March 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Regardless of the applicability of a term from a completely different genre of games with completely different tactics to MWO, can't we all agree on the following?

lurms

Atlas

pick 1

That mentality didn't work with the 2xAC20 Cats - however, I am happy that they still exist.

They're free kills.

[Josef Nader]

No, the OP was tearing into Atlai who try to take on purely support roles by packing on a large laser, a tag, and 3 LRM 15s or some such. These Atlai are terrible, as regardless of what the Atlas' load out is, it's going to be the primary target. Given the minimum range on LRMs, you can't be effective in an Atlas using nothing but LRMs. It's okay to have a launcher or two on your Atlas, but you need to pack close range firepower because you do not have a choice in whether or not you're going to engage in a brawl. The Atlas -will- fill the tank role whether or not he's equipped for it. He doesn't have a choice, given how quickly Atlai draw aggression combined with their inability to escape.

The Atlas is a tank and damage sponge. You sponge damage by tanking as you and I are describing. You're supposed to be drawing the enemy's fire and keeping their attention for as long as possible in an Atlas, and you have the armor and hitboxes to do so exceptionally well. You do not have the speed, maneuverability, or tubes to be an effective LRM boat.

[joedawg39s]

assuming match maker works an atlas has just as much chance to drop 1 of the 3 assault mechs. as long as he can kill or seriously maim the assault he made drop I could care less what build he runs. you wouldn't while about at a stalker sniping with PPCs why should an atlas be any different.

[Sheriff x]

Josef Nader, on 14 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

No, the OP was tearing into Atlai who try to take on purely support roles by packing on a large laser, a tag, and 3 LRM 15s or some such. These Atlai are terrible, as regardless of what the Atlas' load out is, it's going to be the primary target. Given the minimum range on LRMs, you can't be effective in an Atlas using nothing but LRMs. It's okay to have a launcher or two on your Atlas, but you need to pack close range firepower because you do not have a choice in whether or not you're going to engage in a brawl. The Atlas -will- fill the tank role whether or not he's equipped for it. He doesn't have a choice, given how quickly Atlai draw aggression combined with their inability to escape.

The Atlas is a tank and damage sponge. You sponge damage by tanking as you and I are describing. You're supposed to be drawing the enemy's fire and keeping their attention for as long as possible in an Atlas, and you have the armor and hitboxes to do so exceptionally well. You do not have the speed, maneuverability, or tubes to be an effective LRM boat.

That sounds more like "I am angry at people who create mechs with terrible builds (BECAUSE ONLY BUILDS I USE ARE NOT TERRIBLE!!1111!!)," when put into the aforementioned LOLanalysis of the OP's post.

Almost seems like a lot of you need to broaden your generalizations, because specifically targeting one chassis is clearly not what the anger is about.

Apparently Nader didn't get the memo about damage mitigation = speed / evasion in Mechwarrior - major difference between spearhead and "tank".

lololol, some kids these days.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Atlases. Not "atlai".

That is all.

[Royalewithcheese]

joedawg39s, on 14 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

you wouldn't while about at a stalker sniping with PPCs why should an atlas be any different.

IMO that's mostly because a 6xPPC Stalker is actually effective. (There are also non-terrible long-range Atlai, but they tend to use direct-fire weapons.) The Atlas is just a particularly bad LRM platform because it doesn't have mobility or LRM capacity. They end up looking like one of those "balanced" builds that tries to perform at any range and ends up performing at no range.

[Sir Wulfrick]

StalaggtIKE, on 13 March 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

@Sir Wulfrick: Very well said. You sound like an experienced Atlas pilot. I just wanted to add something to what you said below.

Momentum. The Atlas is all about momentum. Once he starts heading in a direction he must be ready to commit.

Thanks, yes, I've put a few miles on the old girl in my time

Momentum is exactky the term i was looking for. Wish I'd used it in my original post - it would have been shorter and more clear.

[Josef Nader]

Tenth Hammer, on 14 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

That sounds more like "I am angry at people who create mechs with terrible builds (BECAUSE ONLY BUILDS I USE ARE NOT TERRIBLE!!1111!!)," when put into the aforementioned LOLanalysis of the OP's post.

Almost seems like a lot of you need to broaden your generalizations, because specifically targeting one chassis is clearly not what the anger is about.

Apparently Nader didn't get the memo about damage mitigation = speed / evasion in Mechwarrior - major difference between spearhead and "tank".

lololol, some kids these days.

Speed hasn't meant damage mitigation for weeks. You didn't get the memo about netcode fixes.

And I'm stating a fact. The Atlas is going to be the primary target regardless of their loadout. They aren't fast enough to ourtun passing butterflies. This means they have to survive by taking hits and having more guns than the enemy. This also means they can't play the range game required to keep distance with LRMs. They also only have a single launcher (meaning LRMs come out in waves regardless of how many you put in there). This equates to LRM Atlai being utterly terrible at LRM boating.

[Karl Marlow]

Attention: Non Atlas Pilots.

You don't have much armor. Stop getting shot. Don't charge in and expect my 53 KPH butt to pull you out of the fire. Start playing in the building and engaging from cover and don't expect me to provide mobile cover in the land of Cheese builds.

[MischiefSC]

An Atlas tanking isn't about taking damage - it's about delivering enough damage in a brawl to destroy at least one, sometimes 2 or 3, other enemies before it goes down. The ability to roll over a ridge at 58 kph and puke up 70 points into some poor ******** face every 3 seconds until they explode into debris.

A well supported Atlas brawler is hands down the best tank - a tank isn't just about getting shot it's about shooting back harder.

The problem is that people don't support it. The thing about an Atlas tanking is that it really can't disengage. Once you've got your throttle up, guns blazing and a target to bear down on you're not going to be able to break off without killing at LEAST the guy in front of you. With cover nearby maybe you can go past into cover but then you're just behind enemy lines.

This is where people screw Atlases on their team all the time. The rush starts, they take a few hits and they stop. Don't be a p***y and stop. You're in a f****ing rush. If you stop you are a worthless p**sy and you're going to make your team lose. If you keep pushing, focusing fire your team will win. The enemy is taking damage too - it's like playing chicken. First one to turn away loses.

Stick with your Atlas. Keep his back covered, focus fire on whatever he's raging on and commit to the battle. If you break and hide like a mewling p**sy then you've probably cost your team the game and after the enemy kills your shocked and abandoned teammates, those guys you effectively just screwed, the enemy is going to descend upon you and kill you next - like a coward.

Sorry to come across as harsh but I can't stress this enough. An Atlas rush is a brutally effective tactic. When my whole team comes I am absolutely confident that my success rate is easily 90% on most maps and in most situations where it's the right choice. failures are universally due to people just not rushing. If you're not an LRM boat you need to be on a flank, pushing forward and shooting. You're adding more targets to the field and soaking some damage to extend the life of your teammates. This is how and why focus fire works.

So some people get sick of being thrown under the bus because they drop with pansies and they put LRMs on their Atlas and they take the easier road. Which LRMs are. They're a hell of a lot easier to play than a brawler Atlas let me tell you.

Man up though. If you're with a brawling team and you're not an LRM boat take your ******** place on the line. There are few tactics more teamwork oriented than a good rush.

[StalaggtIKE]

I also pilot a Dragon. From the start of the match I seek out my allied assaults and protect their hides, especially the Atlas. Draw fire to myself if necessary, I am expendable. Most Hunchbacks, Centurions and Dragons should function as wingmen. With the brunt of your force driven by Splatcats, Boomcats, Cataphracts and Stalker-3F. No, an Atlas should not lead a charge. Perhaps trail closely behind the lead man. Every action of an Atlas is too driven on momentum to be able to make a mistake, retreat and survive.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 March 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Apnu]

Yup, the Atlas is the "tank" of this MMO we play. The splatcats and boomcats are the DPS or otherwise high damage types. LRM boats are like the mages that hang back and reign fire and lights/medium mechs function like the thief/rouge types (their job is to detect the tactical traps, deliver good back-stabing, and chase off the other fast movers). All we're missing is some kind of mech that can either do crowd control or healing and we'd have a parallel for every 'toon type of every fantasy MMO.

As a tank the Atlas needs to attract the most aggro and hold it so the rest of the party (ahem, I mean "lance") can fulfill their roles. Stalkers, due to the durability can also tank.

[Royalewithcheese]

Apnu, on 14 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Yup, the Atlas is the "tank" of this MMO we play. The splatcats and boomcats are the DPS or otherwise high damage types. LRM boats are like the mages that hang back and reign fire and lights/medium mechs function like the thief/rouge types (their job is to detect the tactical traps, deliver good back-stabing, and chase off the other fast movers). All we're missing is some kind of mech that can either do crowd control or healing and we'd have a parallel for every 'toon type of every fantasy MMO.

As a tank the Atlas needs to attract the most aggro and hold it so the rest of the party (ahem, I mean "lance") can fulfill their roles. Stalkers, due to the durability can also tank.

Tank/dps doesn't work against intelligent opponents that prioritize targets tho. People always focus the splatcat first because it's the easiest way to take enemy firepower out of the game.