448 replies to this topic

[JohnathanSwift]

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Anyone who thinks an Atlas can can tank any sort of serious damage is delusional. Atlases cant tank for crap. All it takes is ~160 damage to kill an Atlas. Thats only 2-4 volleys from most mechs.

It would be great if Atlases could actually "assault" but the sad truth is they can't. They have to hide behind cover like every other non-light mech.

The atlas has the highest armor value of any mech with the nicest hit boxes in game, it is definitely a tank.

The Meta behind the Atlas has always been such, this is why support atlases do not work, they're always focused to death.

[Khobai]

Quote

The atlas has the highest armor value of any mech with the nicest hit boxes in game, it is definitely a tank.

Nope. Because speed > armor. Not getting hit is way better than getting hit and having more armor. And nothing about the Atlases hit boxes are nice... theyre enormous, easy to hit, and as a result the Atlas gets hit in the torso with nearly every shot. Where on a Raven-3L because of its speed and small size, even if you hit it, the damage gets spread out all over its body.

[meteorol]

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Anyone who thinks an Atlas can can tank any sort of serious damage is delusional. Atlases cant tank for crap. All it takes is ~160 damage to kill an Atlas. Thats only 2-4 volleys from most mechs. It would be great if Atlases could actually "assault" but the sad truth is they can't. They have to hide behind cover like every other non-light mech.

If you want a mech that can evade damage, soak hits by spreading damage, outrun lrms, and stay alive longer than anything else... then what you want is a Raven-3L, not an Atlas. Because role warfare is so completely backwards in MWO that light mechs are better at tanking than assaults.

The culprit is the high rate of fire and pinpoint accuracy on weapons. It makes tanking impossible for the Atlas because its torso sections get drilled out in mere seconds. Speed is currently way better for staying alive than armor.

Thats exactly what i was saying 8 or 9 pages ago.
I think many guys who claim the atlas could soak up damage like a tank never really piloted one.
Even double armor isn't enough to survive pinpoint burstdamage longer than a few seconds.
If you compare the armor to the alpha damage values its easy to see that the atlas can't take more than 2-3 serious alpha hits to the centertorso.
If 2-3 enemy mechs focus fire on an atlas, he will be cored in under 10 seconds, no matter how hard he twists his torso.

Edited by meteorol, 14 March 2013 - 01:56 AM.

[Khobai]

Yep. Lights do it better.

We have ALL seen light mechs run past the entire enemy team, get shot at by all of them, and escape without barely a scratch on them. Go try that in an Atlas and see how long you last. Maybe 10 seconds, if that? lol.

Atlases do have a lot of armor... but when you realize that 70% of that armor can be bypassed just by drilling its center torso... suddenly its not very impressive anymore. Especially since that center torso is soooo easy to hit.

[Rezerford]

Every time pugging in Atlas I always go to the front line of fire, taking all the fire of 3-4 enemies and trying to deliever as much damage to them as possible, blowing away their armor in several alpha strikes. What do I expect after that? Correct, Fire support from teammates. What do I see instead? I'm completely alone and all friendly mechs are hiding somewhere else, fearing to show their noses.
So why should I go first next match? Atlas is not immortal and obviously I don't want to fall first.
So next match I'll just drive my lovely Awesome 8R which is 10kmph faster than Atlas, or Cataphract or whatever. And will never show up myself at the front line.
The only thing which prevents me of selling out my mastered Atlas AS7-D-DC is ECM. It helps me to avoid LRMs and so that survive longer and do 2-5 kills in a match. AS7-D and AS7-RS were sold without any regrets.

[Johnny Reb]

Komtur, on 14 March 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

So you mean, no one has to talk, no one has to think about a plan and everyone is running and doing by himself and alone?

What! No response! Just WOW!

[Bhan Zor]

The Atlas doesnt have that much armor to just "soak up damage" for you, he got it to (theoretically) deliver his firepower in a brawl longer than the rest of the heavies and assaults. Thats the theory. The sheer size of the Atlas makes it a fire magnet, though. Under heavy focus fire (remember, that is what we all want to achieve), the Atlas goes just as fast down as any random wet towel.

So, before barking playstyle orders at Atlas pilots in general, make sure the golden rules are followed:

• Don't outrun your Atlas
  
• Don't bail on your Atlas
  
• Don't squeeze in front of the Atlas - stand next to him, otherwise he cant deliver his hurt load, yet can still be hit. Don't worry, the baddies usually aim for the largest target anyway...

[Rigiroth]

I've read the first page of this thread before realizing it is all of the same.

I'm an Atlas pilot, I'm also a heavy pilot, a medium pilot, and even a **** poor light pilot. Three points:

Your are bickering about different rolls and what others are doing wrong. It's really rather pointless; spend time learning your roll and how to adapt to pug movements.

Second: Their is no proper damage soak roll. Everything dies too quickly.

Third, get on a Teamspeak already and play with people who do actual play certain ways.

[DCLXVI]

Onmyoudo, on 13 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

An Atlas is a damage soak. It has the most armour, it has the most durability and in a lot of cases it has ECM. If you are not soaking damage, you are not doing your job. Did you get 600 damage? Great. Did you get 2 kills? Well done. Did the rest of your team die because they got alpha struck to death while you were playing coy buggers in the buildings? Then you're next, bucko, and the game has been lost. If you're winning, then it's likely because someone else has been soaking up the damage that you should have been sharing.

Due to the nature of how MWO works, an Atlas is always needed on the front lines. Massive burst damage and concentrated fire can and will annihilate members of your team that, if able to actually fire their weapons (perhaps due to the enemy team instead firing at the large 100 ton behemoth striding towards them) will allow your team to do more damage overall than you alone can manage. 400 + 400 is better than the 600 you will do by yourself.

Your Atlas is not an LRM boat. Get a Catapult. Your Atlas is not a sniper. Get a Stalker. If you want to use those weapons, by all means do so - on your way towards the battle lines. Your mech is one of the most important in any game you play and you must use its strengths to help your team succeed. Because it is your team that is important - if you yourself get blown up with only 200 damage done, but succeed in drawing enough fire to let your team win the match, then your role has been fulfilled and you can congratulate yourself on a job well done. That is your purpose. Start doing it.



Disclaimer: a Stalker could also arguably fill this role, but for several obvious reasons is not as effective.

quit tricking atlas into being meatsheilds! I already see atlas running off doing their own thing and I don't blame them. help them out, spot the other teams meatshields and line us up for them and let the heavies sort it out

[JohnathanSwift]

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Nope. Because MWO

Traditionally throughout the entire game series and table top, the Atlas has always been the tank. I'm sorry hit registration and new generation game design has thrown this out the window.

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Yep. Lights do it better.

We have ALL seen light mechs run past the entire enemy team, get shot at by all of them, and escape without barely a scratch on them. Go try that in an Atlas and see how long you last. Maybe 10 seconds, if that? lol.

Atlases do have a lot of armor... but when you realize that 70% of that armor can be bypassed just by drilling its center torso... suddenly its not very impressive anymore. Especially since that center torso is soooo easy to hit.

Try to juke

[SgtMagor]

Atlas rear torso is big and easy to hit, and core,

[JohnathanSwift]

SgtMagor, on 14 March 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

Atlas rear torso is big and easy to hit, and core,

The awesomes is even bigger,

STEINER ARMOR PLACEMENT HO!

[DeaconW]

Dreamslave, on 14 March 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

takes a lot of punishment when piloted correctly.

I can't find the words to describe how wrong this statement is...

[Josef Nader]

DeaconW, on 14 March 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

I can't find the words to describe how wrong this statement is...

Well shoot, I must be doing something terribly wrong then. My Atlas regularly out-lasts getting pummeled by 3-4 mechs as long as I have a mech or two backing me up.

[MaddMaxx]

Adridos, on 13 March 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

They die as fast as anthing else.

In reality that is not really true.

Atlas - 614 max armor
Stalker - 526 max armor
Awesome - 494 max armor

If a Mech could burn off all its armor, and internals, then die, the Atlas would in fact last longer than the other 2 Assault Mechs noted.

[DeaconW]

Josef Nader, on 14 March 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Well shoot, I must be doing something terribly wrong then. My Atlas regularly out-lasts getting pummeled by 3-4 mechs as long as I have a mech or two backing me up.

My point was that no one should purposely pilot their mech to "take a lot of punishment" in this game. Making a statement like that misunderstands this game entirely. There may be very specific exceptions to this in true coordinated team play, but those times should be rare. We are discussing the general case here.

[Josef Nader]

DeaconW, on 14 March 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

My point was that no one should purposely pilot their mech to "take a lot of punishment" in this game. Making a statement like that misunderstands this game entirely. There may be very specific exceptions to this in true coordinated team play, but those times should be rare. We are discussing the general case here.

And my point is that nobody understands what a tank is supposed to be in video game terms. It doesn't mean you can stand there like a lump and take hits. It means that it takes the enemy a long time to kill you, and you are their primary target for as long as possible. In this regard, the Atlas can take a sickening amount of punishment if piloted correctly. I.E. like a proper tank.

Good tanks are hard to find. Ask anyone who plays MMOs. Shoot, good heavies are hard to find in TF2. Too many people use the heavy like a damage-soaking meathead and get blown to bits in seconds. Tanking is about controlling enemy aggression, not about taking all the hits.

[Elandyll]

MaddMaxx, on 14 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

In reality that is not really true.

Atlas - 614 max armor
Stalker - 526 max armor
Awesome - 494 max armor

If a Mech could burn off all its armor, and internals, then die, the Atlas would in fact last longer than the other 2 Assault Mechs noted.

This statement is higly deceptive.

Everyone knows that Center Core is where people aim (and where LRMs/ SSRMs mostly end up). Or side torsos.

Let's have a look (maximum armor value if rear armor put to 0 just for comparison sake). The armor differential with the Atlas will be in parenthesis next to the value of the lesser armored mechs.

Atlas CT: 124 pts
Atlas ST: 84 pts

Stalker CT: 108 pts (16)
Stalker ST: 72 pts (12)

Awesome CT: 100 pts (24)
Awesome ST: 68 ptst (16)

For sh* and giggles
Cataphract CT: 88 pts (36)
Cataphract ST: 60pts (24)

Here you have it.
The so called "Tank/ Damage soak" of the OP can't take even -1- full salvo of 1xLRM 15 (27 dmg) to the core before having its armor difference with an Awesome stripped away. It's even far less and pretty much the equivalent of -1- Gauss slug with the Stalker.
Heck, the difference with a frigging Cataphract is a good one shot of 4x LL splash to the Center core.

All that is in the best (exceptional) case. A Front liner/ Brawler has to pack a good deal or armor in the back because of where lights like to aim.
A stock Awesome has -more- back armor than an Atlas. 10 more pts actually, so a front differential of 34 pts, but the Atlas pilot would be suicidal to show up frontline with only 28pts of back armor (closed to stripped to zero by just a mere 3xMLs and 2xSSRMs2).

Edited by Elandyll, 14 March 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Atlases are not just tanks, but it's true that they should be trying to spearhead attacks into the enemy force when the time is right, drawing file over the much weaker Medium Mechs. I hate seeing Atlases that are built for long range sniper boats or stacked with LRMs. That's not what they are for, and you are effectively wasting all of the armor you are carrying. If you wanted to do that, you should just rolled a Stalker or Cataphract. A Stalker has more missiles, and a Cataphract subtracts an Assault from the enemy team. A long range built Atlas=bad. At least carry some kind of mixture, like the default loadouts do. But it's definitely sad to see these long range newbboats get beat or outdone by Mechs half their weight because they don't know what they're doing.

[Josef Nader]

If you let the enemy hit nothing but your center torso, you're a trash pilot. Torso twisting and damage management is one of the most important skills in this game. Of course your mechs are going to pop like a balloon if you just let people wail on your CT.