18 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

The name says it allready.

Missile are self propelled and have a guidance system
Rockets are self propelled but have no guidance.

A unguided SRM is called DF-SRM and swaps guidance system for a bigger warhead -> in MWO terms it would deal 3.75dmg per missile.
SRM work actually, that could be called a good field test for the implemantation of MRM or RocketLauncher...

Actual the SRM has a really strong thruster necessary to hit a moving target at ranges up to 270m - but it shouldn't need that.
With a guidance system - you can reduce the velocity and more spread - so AMS is more helpful to fight SRM.

Behaviour of the SRM could be as the same as for the LRM, only the damage and the range should be the difference.
Reason is simple:
Can Light Mechs evade incoming LRM? Yes
Could Light Mechs evade incoming SSRM? Hardly

So for difference: a SSRM has a more complex guidance system. Resulting in a larger missile rack. So SSRM have a reduced spread...and a better v0 - and a better homing system.

[Torquemada]

Remember at its most basic definition a stone being thrown is also described as a missile. It has a guidance system, the person throwing it. In the same way an SRM has a guidance system, the pilot aiming it to fire.

MRM's wont be available for another 8 years anyway in 3058 so we don'd need to worry about those yet.

Rocket launchers, which in other Mech games have always been one of my favourite weapons, wont be available for 14 years in 3064, which is a real shame because those streams of rockets are like high powered low velocity machine guns.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

They're not going to rename it and be in contrary to their Battletech source material just to make you feel better, so I suggest getting over it.

[Karl Streiger]

Torquemada, on 13 March 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

Remember at its most basic definition a stone being thrown is also described as a missile. It has a guidance system, the person throwing it. In the same way an SRM has a guidance system, the pilot aiming it to fire.

right about the missile
allthough i dislike to swing the heavy LORE club:
here is the same discussion in the official battletech forum - with reference to the fundamental TechManual:
http://bg.battletech...p?topic=15477.0

Torquemada, on 13 March 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

MRM's wont be available for another 8 years anyway in 3058 so we don'd need to worry about those yet.

right

Torquemada, on 13 March 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

Rocket launchers, which in other Mech games have always been one of my favourite weapons, wont be available for 14 years in 3064, which is a real shame because those streams of rockets are like high powered low velocity machine guns.

wrong - early RL are allready available during the time of the Star League - why not its the most simple launcher possible.

By the way another good reference about missiles is this one, and how those weapons could be improved for more varity is this one:
http://bg.battletech....html#msg308813

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 March 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[Victor Morson]

The lack of lock is what makes the SRM vs Streaks thing an issue in the current timeline.

We'll be revisiting nerfing Streaks when SSRM6 become available, I'm sure, though.

[Karl Streiger]

So SRM not guided.... hm than we have a paradox:
you are able to use Artemis IV guidance system for your unguided SRM.
Please think about that.

If you wish i could explain how the difference of different SRM guidance systems may work.
However please stop to think guidance = "fire and forget"

[Big Giant Head]

Karl Streiger, on 14 March 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

So SRM not guided.... hm than we have a paradox:
you are able to use Artemis IV guidance system for your unguided SRM.
Please think about that.

If you wish i could explain how the difference of different SRM guidance systems may work.
However please stop to think guidance = "fire and forget"

I agree.
Make SRMs guideable at least with you reticule ( considering you have target lock)
And artemis too, I mean, we need to revamp srms

[Eddrick]

I noticed the same thing. SRMs do not appear to be guided. They do seem to act like Rockets. I would prefer that they were guided. Like Streak SRMs. Just not as accurate.

[General Taskeen]

The only truly great SRM interpretation was MW2 and MW:LL.

Ripple Fire, and Fly more straight




If all other missiles types get added, I forsee little difference if they don't think outside the box to differentiate them. BT even has Rocket Launcher Packs, MRMs (medium range missiles), ATMs, MMLs, etc.

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 March 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[PapaKilo]

SRMs have never had guidance in any of the MechWarrior computer games. This is not the time to change that.

Artemis works as guidance because it attaches to the launcher itself AND requires different ammunition to work. Trying to use standard ammunition in an Artemis-equipped launcher disables the Artemis functionality in BattleTech. In MW:O (as with all other MechWarrior computer games that had Artemis), you cannot use standard ammunition with an Artemis-equipped launcher.

How EXACTLY would the devs balance guided SRMs and Streaks? Streaks are supposed to hit 100% of the time in BattleTech. That's their niche -- as long as you lock on, they hit every time. However, the accuracy percentage for Streaks in MW:O is more like 70% or so. What would you have them do -- same Streak lock-on, but only hit 40% for standard SRMs?

I can tell you right now that doing anything like that would royally tick me off. My accuracy is 59.25% for SRM6 (damn that wide spread), 84.09% for SRM4, and 73.53% for Streaks.

Standard SRM guidance is YOU, the pilot. That doesn't need to change.

[General Taskeen]

PapaKilo, on 14 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

How EXACTLY would the devs balance guided SRMs and Streaks? Streaks are supposed to hit 100% of the time in

I don't know think outside the box maybe?

So imma think outside the box

Guided SRMs - Fix missile damage, Ripple Fire, Fly Straight (Bonus Guided SRM + NARC ability, SRM ammo upgrade costs twice as much to auto-track to beacon w/ min turn angle, player can lock target or dumb-fire for auto-track)
Guided Artemis SRMs - Fix Missile Damage, Ripple Fire, Follows circle pipper to max range (min turn angle)
SSRMs - Fix Missile Damage, Ripple Fire (already fly straight) (auto-tracks target, no user guided assistance required as now + min turn angle)
LRMs - Ripple Fire (Bonus Guided LRM + NARC ability, LRM ammo upgrade costs twice as much to auto-track to beacon w/ min turn angle, locking target the missiles track like normal, but dumb-firing gets auto-track)

Boom, fixed.

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 March 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[DeadlyNerd]

Voted "no" for the sake of irrelevance.

[Karl Streiger]

PapaKilo, on 14 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

I can tell you right now that doing anything like that would royally tick me off. My accuracy is 59.25% for SRM6 (damn that wide spread), 84.09% for SRM4, and 73.53% for Streaks.

Standard SRM guidance is YOU, the pilot. That doesn't need to change.

Please do not think - in homing criss crossing 180° degree turn - dimensions.
SRM with guidance will work like LRM... you have only a max of 270m so there isn't much target finding.

Hm a good example would be torpedos...you got a firng solution based on the actual speed and vector of your target...you hit fire...the SRMs are on their way... the target moves on...the volley will hit...(if target is near he eat more missiles, else less missile will hit the target...for more spread)

So but target maxes a dead stop...you missiles will go wide...if target is near its a complete miss else some missles may hit because of the spread.

The pilot is still needed. Because the missiles will follow the path you are aiming at first... means when your are aiming at the target when you firing your missiles the chance that they will hit is better... or you expect that the target will doge...so you point you crosshair in another direction.

Like LRM it would be still necessary to analyse your target...analyse its movement and more.

Streaks will not greatly differ from guided SRM only that they are always fired directly on the target...or directly into his path - and they should be faster and have less spread.

[MasterErrant]

if you want to argue about this honestly go look up modern guided missiles and then go read the descriptions of battletech LRMs and SRMs the closest thing in the real world is the early terminal guidance systems the military played with for artillery pre GPS.GLGP systems. SRMs are a little smarter than LRM's because they fire directly at the target. and streaks are about like a Stinger missile...smart but not real smart.
if they were "Guided missiles in the moden sense they would mostly all hit and do far more damage.

In 3025 innersphere mechs barely have sensors . mostly LLTV and short range thermographics as well as a MAD (Magnetic anomaly detector) in 3049 full sensor suites are restored but even then they aren't all that great. few mechs have search radar because it make them too easy to spot. a military radar detector costs about five hundred dollars and tells you where the radar is.

I'd like to point out that one LRM weighs less than seventeen pounds and costs cb250
and that weight and cost include the magazine's share of the feed mechanism

Edited by MasterErrant, 26 March 2013 - 01:39 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

MasterErrant, on 26 March 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

if they were "Guided missiles in the moden sense they would mostly all hit and do far more damage.

If that would be the case, then a LRM 20 would not be able to fire 540missiles...just 20.

As you said...i think pre GPS artillery missiles or history torpedo firing solution would be an exellent example for "BattleTech" guidance missiles.
I think its kind of funny, that in BT RPG - you need accuracy for ballistic and energy weapons but inteligence for missile weapons.

[MasterErrant]

BT missile guidance......

the mech takes a look at the target it sends speed and location info to the launcher which tells the missiles where to go. the travel in a group when launched but spread out to maximize the chance of individual missiles detecting the target when the reach their terminal attact range they turn down their sensor (Most likely an cheap low res IR seeker or milimetric radar (artemis) seeker) locks on the target and those that got a clean lock strike. those that don't lock hit the hex the target started at possibly doing damage if it or another mech occupies that hex.

this description matches how the missiles work in BT there are several other guidance systems that would work the other system that seems likely is communicator guidance with the firing mech giving course corrections during the flight. or wire guidance like torpedos as Karl Streiger suggests.


Karl Streiger I don't get the 540?

Edited by MasterErrant, 26 March 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

MasterErrant, on 26 March 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

Karl Streiger I don't get the 540?

I meant the reloading mechanism. I'm not sure if it is possible to pack so much missiles into a chassis.
540 LRMs Hydra Size...missiles have nearly the same weight, but from there dimensions there have to be problems.

[MasterErrant]

By the way I don't think the missiles are fundamentally broken in this game it's really other things that need fixed. the way that they were before the uber patch was about right...I think LRMs need to move faster (lrms currently move at 220MPH I used to shoot a crossbow that shot bolts faster than that!) )

the devs are choosing mechs and variants that encourage boating. they
slanted the engine sizes to favor ligh mechs.
the hardpoints are bad the cureent heat system is bat the ECM system is bad the sensore are all screwed up. if all these little thing were adjusted the game would start to fall together.

the biggest problem is that the entire armor design comes from the TT and is built for a game in which rear armor shots are very hard to get as are precisely target shots.

[MasterErrant]

well no it's strictly not this is one of the obvious inconsistencies in BT the Cat's missile pods are another...if the launchers were that big them there's no way all those missiles would fit... the artwork is cool but unrealistic. the Hunchie for example is one of the bet drawn mechs in the game as is the Jaeger I know from artwork that the SRM missile is about 24 inches long and 3 in diameter. the infantry SRM< is half that size and has the same warhead but no guidance.

Edited by MasterErrant, 26 March 2013 - 11:55 AM.