145 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

Good post, a valid counter.

I have to think about that.

[Deathlike]

WolvesX, on 15 May 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

I think most players know that your elo isn't bad.^^

Shhh... I'm trying to blend in with the trolls.

Kitane, on 15 May 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

As the pilot skill grows, the so-called balance changes, often drastically. Yet many people fall off from that climb, leaving with bitter memories of being overpowered by OP enemy.

If we had ELO back then and planes were balanced by requirements of top players, newbies and intermediate players would perceive the balance as horribly flawed, veterans would have a vague understanding of underlying concepts but they would still frequently and vocally disagree. And a small group of elite players would be satisfied, isolated from the rest by having a completely different understanding of what actually matters.

It's nice to have a true balance, but it will not help the game if 99% of the players are not skilled enough to see it.

Agreed. However, I think there will always be a proportion of the population that doesn't see the flaws, whether they are elite or not, and make suggestions/opinions based on the flawed arguments. It happens to all of us at one time or another, but I would have to say that experience (through seeing it for yourself and then trying to recreate it) is most essential to understanding the core problems.

For instance, one of the ECM nerfs involves not removing players out of your radar altogether. This usually is easier to understand as you learn how ECM works.. but for the newbie, they don't know what to do or how to interpret it and thus subsequently get squashed.. complaining about how they are easily wiped off the map due to ECM. Even as someone that understands ECM, I occasionally freak out when ECM is around... but I'm usually more confident in recognizing where my teammates last were so I can try to point out to them that the mechs are nearby and thus need to be on guard and relatively close to each other as the best counter (especially in the absence of any team ECM).

So yea, it's a lot more complicated on the surface than it looks when it comes to balance and skill.

[Zolaz]

[xRaeder]

Zolaz, on 15 May 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Hence the problem. I have no idea what tier I'm in.

[Prophetic]

ELO sucks and makes people not want to play. That is your answer!

[Odin]

Tennex, on 13 March 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

players at high elo take advantage of OP things for every little competitive edge they can get. Its a very good indication of what is too powerful and exploitable in a game. And a very good place to start balance wise.

balancing for low/med levels can be more difficult as cheese builds that the pros know how to deal with can be very dangerous to less skilled players.

Absolute!

The "unbalanced" low ranking Elo gameplay needs no fixing, it ain't broken. Just new players, we all started there. The "balanced" high ranking Elo gameplay, aka 8vs8 competitions are a focus on the most effective, and logical the cheapest way to get things done, and therefore a serious deterioration. 8vs8 took a LIFT OFF into eSPORTS.

To start there and balance those few OP things and mechanics, didn't look like something big to me, add some heat to stacking weapons.

elo works for me.


Odin

Edited by Odin, 16 May 2013 - 12:48 AM.

[WolvesX]

xRaeder, on 15 May 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Hence the problem. I have no idea what tier I'm in.

Yup, we need to see our personal elo. Only ourselfs, not in the game, but in the profile forum section.

[Ogresan]

I can't think of any need to see our Elo. What use could be made of it?
I am curious about how Elo will be used in CW. I can understand the battles between factions could be random matched, but the merc corps will likely field full 12man teams at every opportunity. I don't see anyone handicapping themselves with a short drop when planets are on the line. Even players within a faction may start premade 12 man groups. May they be matched against 12 lone wolves? This would seem unfair as 12 people grouping themselves and communicating over voice comms have a huge advantage over the lonewolves even though their Elo numbers may balance team for team.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

The Elo matchmaker exists ONLY to make matchers harder. Note that I did not say it makes matches more fair, or more fun. Only harder. It has proven to be very good at that.

The Elo system is not meant to be a mechanism to measure yourself against others. So there is no reason for you to see it. It would only serve to act as an e-ego stroking and bullying device on the forums.

Edited by Eldragon, 16 May 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Assuming Elo is here to stay, the major problem I have with it (based on the CC post a couple of weeks ago) is that new players start in the middle of the bell curve, matched against the majority of the average players. Unless they've been doing research, spend some money, and have some innate skill new players are going to have a miserable beginning experience. In some cases, the new players will get "lucky", drop with teammates that carry them to victory, and you will end up with players who had no business being in the "top tier" of Elo playing against guys who are truly masters. In the end, though, there is still a random element to the system ... if the majority of the matches over a long period of time are generally even, the system is doing it's job.

As far as the weapon / mech / meta balancing issue goes ... this is a never-ending cycle, and I think PGI is doing a decent job looking at long-term trends and metrics and making measured adjustments, rather than "knee-jerk" responses that just make the pendulum swing faster. I hope that by the time for the transition from Open Beta to Release, the game is balanced enough that any tweaks are minor.

In the meantime, I'm going to play to have fun and explore new concepts, features and styles and try to remember that it's just a game.

[Odin]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 16 May 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Assuming Elo is here to stay, the major problem I have with it (based on the CC post a couple of weeks ago) is that new players start in the middle of the bell curve, matched against the majority of the average players. Unless they've been doing research, spend some money, and have some innate skill new players are going to have a miserable beginning experience. In some cases, the new players will get "lucky", drop with teammates that carry them to victory, and you will end up with players who had no business being in the "top tier" of Elo playing against guys who are truly masters. In the end, though, there is still a random element to the system ... if the majority of the matches over a long period of time are generally even, the system is doing it's job.

As far as the weapon / mech / meta balancing issue goes ... this is a never-ending cycle, and I think PGI is doing a decent job looking at long-term trends and metrics and making measured adjustments, rather than "knee-jerk" responses that just make the pendulum swing faster. I hope that by the time for the transition from Open Beta to Release, the game is balanced enough that any tweaks are minor.

In the meantime, I'm going to play to have fun and explore new concepts, features and styles and try to remember that it's just a game.

Greetings Kageru Ikazuchi.

These thoughts, reflect my own musings about elo and high ranking players.
First steps into PvP, should be, in any way, manageable and mostly fun for the inexperienced player.

In 8vs8/12vs12 PvP, I would love to see more variety.

My single drops are fun. I see lots of skilled pilots on both sides. Those battles are the most fun and a good challenge.

Often though, the skill mix of the drops is unpredictable, more often then not, high/low mix is too extreme, on both sides.




Odin

[Prezimonto]

This is a good thread and deserves a boot back to the top.

[buttmonkey]

i agree elo should be on a mech basis not weight class basis.

i would go one further and say on each mech varient basis. if you have one varient maxed out on xp and upgrades your going to do a lot worse when you start a new varient from scratch so your elo will be see-sawing up and down.

if you started from the the standard elo score on each new varient then your elo would show a much smoother curve either up or down each time you buy a new varient. going into matches with a high elo when you have a brand new stock mech with no upgrades or pilot skill unlocks will undouobtedly result in more losses than wins until your elo balances out. wheras starting from the standard elo score means you elo will be making contstant small adjustments as your lvling each new mech resulting in more balanced matches

just my 2 cents

[Deathlike]

You know, the irony of the comments with respect to ELO is that they have been more or less posted in the mega-threads about MM and ELO, and nothing has really changed.

Right now, I think MM v4 is not really working as it should.. at least with MM v3 there was some semblance of predictability (strict ELO) and the same could be said for v2 (weight only). However, the current version, I'm not so confident about (it's supposed to be v3+v2 combined).

Also, I believe there are really doing the entire ELO/MM thing slowly... if we implement the common idea that each variant should have its own ELO (for some, they want each specific MECH CHASSIS they own - assuming they have duplicate ones) but the code for that would have to increase in complexity by an order of magnitude... However, they have been very slow to make changes to it (unless it was like the initial v3 MM disaster). v4 is becoming like that.. so I suspect it will be a while to await for MM v5 or v6 where the per-variant idea would eventually be deployed.

Edited by Deathlike, 20 May 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[Hemlokx]

Not so much "Ranked and Unranked games" or Elo limits but we need a Fun/Even game mode. That is games of all Trial Mech's. Have a new game type "Trial Mech's only" ok you do not get XP but still get CB. But in this type of game its player skill not Pilot, Mech upgrades, ECM or Modules it JUST player skill with what ever 4 Trial Mechs are up that hour.

This game mode would help new players learn about the game playing against the same Mechs they can select to play. Only player skill is the diffrent.

Edited by Hemlokx, 29 May 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[WolvesX]

Hemlokx, on 29 May 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Not so much "Ranked and Unranked games" or Elo limits but we need a Fun/Even game mode. That is games of all Trial Mech's. Have a new game type "Trial Mech's only" ok you do not get XP but still get CB. But in this type of game its player skill not Pilot, Mech upgrades, ECM or Modules it JUST player skill with what ever 4 Trial Mechs are up that hour.

This game mode would help new players learn about the game playing against the same Mechs they can select to play. Only player skill is the diffrent.

Good ideas.

[Skoaljaw]

After some thought, consideration, and council from my fellow clan mates, I have come to the decision that PGI really has done a wonderful job with the ELO. The balancing act is a tight one and even though dropping with unknowns or inexperienced players can sometimes tug at my nerves, in the end it is a learning experience for them as well as myself.

[PEEFsmash]

This is a fantastic post, and is extremely relevant, thanks for the writeup.

[Aslena]

this system would be awesome

[Fut]

WolvesX, on 04 June 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Good ideas.

Just wanted to let you know that this thread has been an amazing read.
A lot of great points have been brought to the table, and we can only hope that the Devs read through this in it's entirety.

I also wanted to bump this to the top, as more people should be reading it.