148 replies to this topic

[Ilwrath]

Bounty Dogg, on 13 March 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Not to offend anyone....but this statement right here....THIS is why ELO numbers should remain hidden.

I think they should be visible for all to see. What is there to hide?

All I know is that the op complains about his friend getting stomped. Because of Elo.
Elo must be bad because his friend is the one that should do the stomping.

I get nice games from the Elo. Good for me that I am not playing with inflated stats. Hurray for Elo!

[Glythe]

Ilwrath, on 13 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

What does my KDR matter? Its Kill / Death Ratio 2.16 as a pure pubbie. Its okay. But why did you want to know?

You do premade right? There is zero problems with Elo when you pub so it would be strange if you are suffering while being a pure pubbie.

If you do premade, here: have another laugh from me. If not, well then I am sorry and apologize.

KDR is the only meaningful statistic we have right now because it's the only way to look at how you are performing (not your team). If your KDR is high it either means you are good at killing or you are good at not getting killed (or both). Even this one statistic is problematic because anyone who has spent a lot of time in the stomping category has an inflated "not getting killed" portion of their KDR.

Mine rose to 4.4 after the implementation of Elo matchmaking. You insinuated I was a crap player and was having trouble adjusting as a result. I'm not a crap player.... I just get poor matches. I'm not saying you are a bad player because your KDR is lower but I just want to point out your accusation is false.

I love playing my Atlas but the most recent MM changes have made it nearly impossible to win because I get BS teams. I didn't suddenly become a crap player with the last patch but it feels like my team did in just about every single game. I claim the MM is broken.

Premade 4 man groups are far more difficult to maintain stats because most people have quite a bit of inflated score and aren't actually worth their MM weight.

Bounty Dogg, on 13 March 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Not to offend anyone....but this statement right here....THIS is why ELO numbers should remain hidden. THIS is EXACTLY what people would use em for. To try and either validate their arguement with a metric, or INvalidate someone else's with it. And while im NOT saying the Quoted Poster would be nasty about it, i have NO DOUBT many others will......and for what? End of the day, you'll STILL have bad days, bad teams, and bad moments. We'll STILL have steamrolls and close matches.....The ELO number would just be YET ANOTHER way for us to be ugly about trying to be right.

In a testing phase for Elo there is no reason to have invisible Elo scores. After the match you should see everyone's score. It would be clear definitive proof that the system isn't working.

I hate to break it to you but nasty people are going to be just that. They will either find a way or they will make a way to be jerks.

Edited by Glythe, 13 March 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Ilwrath]

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

KDR is the only meaningful statistic we have right now because it's the only way to look at how you are performing (not your team). If your KDR is high it either means you are good at killing or you are good at not getting killed (or both). Even this one statistic is problematic because anyone who has spent a lot of time in the stomping category has an inflated "not getting killed" portion of their KDR.

KDR right now don't matter. You have to look at KDR AFTER Elo. Many of the pure pubbies are doing better than before Elo.

My games after Elo push the KDR up. As I posted pic of in this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/103544-your-weapon-statistics-how-does-your-accuracy-differ-between-weapons/page__st__60

But KDR is not all. Sometimes people drive some crap mech just because its fun. That will maim your KDR.

[MischiefSC]

I'm not a terrible player but I figure I'm around average. At this point I'm getting good enough to be filler for the premade vs premade games and I'm on pretty much a 12 game losing streak today.

I'm not complaining though. A couple of them I got away from my teammates and got killed. Most of them were just poor teamwork on my side. I've probably ended up above where my Elo should be; I had a great day yesterday, win/loss somewhere close to 1.75 for the day. Today I'm paying for it.

After you've got 1,000 matches in Elo, at least 200 or 300 with the same mech you should be about at the right place. Dropping in a premade is going to skew that.

[Zeh]

Znail, on 13 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

MWO Elo doesn't work in the upper ends of the ratings as there are too few players for that. If you are a good player, then you are game actually have trouble finding a match most of the time and there is deffinitly not some magically supperior players above you that you will start to lose against if you improve your Elo. So there is no real cap on how much Elo you can get.

This is quite true. As I said, I've maintained just over 70% wr after ELO.

Also, why is everyone comparing KDR? Win-rate DIRECTLY effects your ELO. You win? Gain ELO. You lose? Lose ELO. How much you lose or gain is up to question, but that's what happens.

And Glythe, the reason you're playing with bad people is because you're ranked amongst them. There's already been a few people in this thread stating they've got high win-rates and play only with good people now.

[Bounty Dogg]

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

KDR is the only meaningful statistic we have right now because it's the only way to look at how you are performing (not your team). If your KDR is high it either means you are good at killing or you are good at not getting killed (or both). Even this one statistic is problematic because anyone who has spent a lot of time in the stomping category has an inflated "not getting killed" portion of their KDR.

Mine rose to 4.4 after the implementation of Elo matchmaking. You insinuated I was a crap player and was having trouble adjusting as a result. I'm not a crap player.... I just get poor matches. I'm not saying you are a bad player because your KDR is lower but I just want to point out your accusation is false.

I love playing my Atlas but the most recent MM changes have made it nearly impossible to win because I get BS teams. I didn't suddenly become a crap player with the last patch but it feels like my team did in just about every single game. I claim the MM is broken.

Premade 4 man groups are far more difficult to maintain stats because most people have quite a bit of inflated score and aren't actually worth their MM weight.



In a testing phase for Elo there is no reason to have invisible Elo scores. After the match you should see everyone's score. It would be clear definitive proof that the system isn't working.

I hate to break it to you but nasty people are going to be just that. They will either find a way or they will make a way to be jerks.

So why give em more ammo? especially a number thats used as a balancing metric for the behind-the-scenes system of keeping the playing field level? A system that can then be abused, as the example in this thread tries to do? More cons can come from showing the ELOs than pros. I say, let us keep the KDR as our way of measuring our skill, and let the ELO do its thing behind the scenes.

Edited by Bounty Dogg, 13 March 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[FerretGR]

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

It's not a common factor in my experience. I've seen games where it's me and 3 friends with 4 randoms vs 8 randoms (who all happen to be legendary founders). Granted that doesn't mean they were better but it means they have had the potential to be playing longer.

I was trying to be gentle. There is a common factor. You. And your team, I suppose.

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

When you're dead you can watch people you know. It's pretty easy to tell if someone knows what they are doing when you can see where they are aiming. And if you see someone in a trial mech do you really think they are going to contribute much to the match?

In the spectator window, you're watching server side video. Perhaps things have improved since the bad old days pre-state rewind, but much of the time what you're seeing and what they're seeing are different enough that what are close or well-placed shots on their screen look like complete misses on yours.

I see few, if any, trials in game these days. Again, I credit Elo for that.

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

If your Elo experience is different from mine there is no way to observe what is wrong with what I seen as to how the MM is supposed to be working. If you want to compare we can do that but there's really not much point as we do not have detailed stats.

Well, we can make some assumptions without stats... that's what this thread is basically about, your assumptions. I'm playing with and against badasses (well, badasses from my perspective at least). I assume that's because Elo is working and I'm being placed against real competition. You're getting grouped with scrubs and guys in trial mechs. Isn't it possible that's simply the right place on the Elo scale for you?

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

In a testing phase for Elo there is no reason to have invisible Elo scores. After the match you should see everyone's score. It would be clear definitive proof that the system isn't working.

...or that it IS working, and you're just working your way down the Elo ladder to your proper place.

Though I tend to agree that visible Elo will be just another reason for folks to be ****** to each other. Things like that are poison to a community. It's used for a background process and so should stay in the background.

Edited by FerretGR, 13 March 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Glythe]

Zeh, on 13 March 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

why is everyone comparing KDR? Win-rate DIRECTLY effects your ELO. You win? Gain ELO. You lose? Lose ELO. How much you lose or gain is up to question, but that's what happens.

And Glythe, the reason you're playing with bad people is because you're ranked amongst them. There's already been a few people in this thread stating they've got high win-rates and play only with good people now.

Win rate can be pulled by the team. You can't get kills just because you happened to pop into that game. KDR also affects win rates because if you can kill people left and right you're an asset to the team. No matter how you slice it less enemies in the game makes it easier for your team to win. You can be the best player in the game (with a high match score) and still lose because your team didn't perform as well as you did.

As others have pointed out over a long enough time line your win rate will approach 50% with an Elo match making system (unless you are so far above everyone that you cannot be evenly matched). My win rate is 66% which is really not far below yours.

You're calling me a bad player. Post your Elo or go troll someone else. Oh wait you can't so there's no way of determining who is the better player. In the meantime post your KDR.





Oh look below this post there is a troll with 81 posts (let's all hope there isnt an 82nd post from said user)

Edited by Glythe, 13 March 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Matt Minus]

Oh , look! It's another guy that's starting with the assumption that he's one of the top players in the game and then working backwards to try to figure out what flaw in teh game accounts for him losing so much.

[jay35]

Question: If someone frequently runs into well-known folks here like V. Rain, Wispsy, and Broceratops in their PUG matches, is that a sign of a high ELO?

[Glythe]

FerretGR, on 13 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

In the spectator window, you're watching server side video. Perhaps things have improved since the bad old days pre-state rewind, but much of the time what you're seeing and what they're seeing are different enough that what are close or well-placed shots on their screen look like complete misses on yours.

Be that as it may when you can see people NOT doing the things they should be (like torso twisting to block with arms) you can tell who is good and who is bad. And if it takes them forever to kill an enemy or they don't know how to exploit the weakness of an enemy's weapon (after you type it out and explain it to them) then they are probably not the best player out there.

FerretGR, on 13 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

I see few, if any, trials in game these days. Again, I credit Elo for that.

I never said I see them every game. But you still see them too. As such you're in the same boat as me. Every now and then I see one on my team and usually cringe if I watch them play.

FerretGR, on 13 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Well, we can make some assumptions without stats... that's what this thread is basically about, your assumptions. I'm playing with and against badasses (well, badasses from my perspective at least). I assume that's because Elo is working and I'm being placed against real competition. You're getting grouped with scrubs and guys in trial mechs. Isn't it possible that's simply the right place on the Elo scale for you?

When the matchmaker works I get into games where is at least one guy who is really good. It can be difficult to tell who is better with all the cookie cutter builds floating around but you see clues here and there. Smart players will see a wounded section and hit it (and not be confused by the L/R facing). Meanwhile bad players will miss entirely and average players will hit but not the wounded area.

I know how the MM is supposed to work because I read the post. I'm saying something is wrong because I rarely seem to get good team mates but I tend to run into a lot of high skilled opponents (maybe I should point that out). I think part of the problem is that there are still a number of people who are "overcons" in the matchmakers eyes.


Facts:

1. statistics do not work well with low sample size.
2. New system had problems immediately after it was introduced
3. I play often when sample size (population) is low

Edited by Glythe, 13 March 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Ilwrath, on 13 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

KDR right now don't matter. You have to look at KDR AFTER Elo. Many of the pure pubbies are doing better than before Elo.

My games after Elo push the KDR up. As I posted pic of in this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/103544-your-weapon-statistics-how-does-your-accuracy-differ-between-weapons/page__st__60

But KDR is not all. Sometimes people drive some crap mech just because its fun. That will maim your KDR.

My KDR jumped a full point after ELO......even though my win loss is dropping like a stone.

[Tickdoff Tank]

jay35, on 13 March 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Question: If someone frequently runs into well-known folks here like V. Rain, Wispsy, and Broceratops in their PUG matches, is that a sign of a high ELO?

No, yes, yes.

[Glythe]

Yokaiko, on 13 March 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

My KDR jumped a full point after ELO......even though my win loss is dropping like a stone.

That probably means that despite your team failing pretty hard you are still getting a lot of work done.

Conversely you can attempt to rig wins by stacking certain weights in the current MM. You cannot rig kills.... although it is possible you might be the greatest KS thief ever (not suggesting merely pointing out possibility).

Edited by Glythe, 13 March 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

That probably means that despite your team failing pretty hard you are still getting a lot of work done.

Conversely you can attempt to rig wins by stacking certain weights in the current MM. You cannot rig kills.... although it is possible you might be the greatest KS thief ever (not suggesting merely pointing out possibility).

Nah yesterday I was top damage 4 times in a row....with a raven...(that should never, EVER happen)

Or today 600 damage three kills, with a hunchback when there were 4 assaults on the team, that was second damage, and EVERY kill.

Edited by Yokaiko, 13 March 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Zeh]

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Win rate can be pulled by the team. You can't get kills just because you happened to pop into that game. KDR also affects win rates because if you can kill people left and right you're an asset to the team. No matter how you slice it less enemies in the game makes it easier for your team to win. You can be the best player in the game (with a high match score) and still lose because your team didn't perform as well as you did.

You're calling me a bad player. Post your Elo or go troll someone else. Oh wait you can't so there's no way of determining who is the better player. In the meantime post your KDR.

Regardless of whether your team can carry you or not, ELO is determined by wins and losses, not KDR. It WILL define your ELO, whether it defines your skill or not.

BTW my KDR is a bit over 3.5.

Also, haven't seen a trial mech in a while.

[Yokaiko]

Zeh, on 13 March 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Regardless of whether your team can carry you or not, ELO is determined by wins and losses, not KDR. It WILL define your ELO, whether it defines your skill or not.

That is one of my main gripes with ELO. You are at the mercy of your team, I've lost games where there were two guys with over 1000 damage (not LRM boats) but FIVE under 100.

Four or five times a day I end up with a team where I'm top damage and account for 2nd through 5th to come up with an equal number.

.....and take the elo hit for it.

It actually punishes you, which is ******* annoying.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Glythe, on 13 March 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

One of my friends was not having any fun in this game and decided he was resetting his Elo to zero. He went into games with extremely low armor an XL engine and ammo in funny places. Considering that the MM considers all your mechs of a class as the same Elo you can basically suicide bomb rush the enemy with mediums or lights. You can't really rush in assault mechs but you can shamble into the PPCs well enough. How do you know when you've hit zero? The enemy has trouble killing you when you have 10% armor and are loaded up with explosive ammunition for weapons you can't use.


You've told us repeatedly that a stat wipe is coming. Can we get an Elo wipe too? [redacted]

Now granted the Elo system should disappear and never come back. When it works it's not half bad but unfortunately it seems to make most matches end in a landslide when it fails to work. The working to failing ratio seems to be about 1:9 unless you are playing in prime time and then it's only about 1:3

Apparently zombies have taken over the earth and they are playing Mechwarrior Online. I know this because the match maker keeps putting them on my team. Dropping with 4 great players means you get matched against 8 good players and the rest of your team are said zombies.

If you want a leg up in the next tournament (lol not that I'd bother to participate in such poorly planned events) but you would have a serious advantage if you reset your Elo to zero.

This is such a horrible douche crappy thing to do to other people. He's not just hurting himself, he has taken it upon himself to hurt his whole team ... people who may be trying to win.

Beyond that ELO doesn't get "reset"... In order to properly find a person's rating it needs to do so over a period of time. You adjust up quickly, and down slowly.

Such painful ignorance. The type of thinking which is poisonous to new players.

[Megurine Luka]

They did say that they were still doing a balance pass on ELO. I certainly hope that it improves the quality of games during off-peak hours. For now, playing my lower ELO weight classes does help during the 'bad' times.

[Aethon]

FerretGR, on 13 March 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

So basically, your friend started running into competition, and now he's not having fun?

I have yet to see an Elo complaint (other than the mismatched weight classes, for which a tweak is coming) that doesn't boil down to this.

It is not very fun to play 4v8...which is what happens when you have 4 good players on your team, and ELO gives you 4 boat anchors for teammates.