19 replies to this topic

[BlackWidow]

Re-posting from here:
http://mwomercs.com/...21#entry2053821

as I thought this topic could use another look and is definitely NOT "off-topic"

Here is my contribution:


Obviously (to me anyway) most of the commentors here either didn't watcht the video or didn't understand how it directly relates to MWO.

Watch the video again. But as you do, keep Splatcats, Raven 3Ls and OP [sic] LRMs vs Lasers/Ballistics in the back of your mind. This is exactly what PGI is doing with some of these seemingly imbalanced options.

Mech such as the Streakcat or Splatcat are considered by most to be "easymode" And RVN-3L...we'll they just need to be crushed with the nerf bat. Hard.

But, what these mech DO provide is a means by which the lesser skilled player can at least have a chance to be competative and have fun in the game against highly skilled or very experience players.

These mech do have limitations and weaknesses though. Even though I agree that ECM is WAY in need of a tune-down...it's completely ineffective against laser and ballistic fire.

And people that have to rely on streaks, LRMs or ECM will rarely transcend to higher level of skill needed to master direct fire weapons.

Now, until the netcode and hit box "rollback" features are finalized direct fire weapons will not be living up to their full potential. But, when that day does happen and more regional servers are deployed to reduce ping, skilled players will own lesser skilled players no matter what flavor-of-the-month they are piloting.

Speaking of which, one other thing to consider (along the lines with large latency) is older PCs. I generally perfer lasers and SRM builds as I like to brawl. I'm not great at it, but it give me the most pleasure. But, if I'm on the road with my older laptop in a hotel with crappy internet, I play an A1 with (4) SSRM2 and (2) Artimus + SRM6s. Many will say cheese build, but it allows me to at least win half of my matchs and get at lest 1-2 kills per game. If I tried my normal laser/srm builds.....I'd be constantly over or under correcting for internt lag and low FPS.

All I'm saying is watch the video again and try to relate it to MWO, how you play and who you've played against.

Cheese will always have a place in MWO, but for a skilled pilot a few ER Large Lasers makes for a great cheese slicer.

[Samurai]

I love Extra Creditz. I may be the odd man out, but I often times enjoy reading about the game industry and it's mechanics more than playing most of the games.

The other one that ties into this is the episode on "Perfect Imbalance" I won't post link as it's been posted numerous times and I will just get smacked for that.

But, to your post, I agree, mostly. There *is* a need....specifically with an online multi-player game, to have "easier" points of entry for some people to use. As long as they have diminishing returns.

As far as I can tell, the 3L has no diminishing returns. But, as more game modes and CW is introduced, I hope we will find CHEESE builds have less of a place in the world as specific roles and objectives need to be met in matches besides just "HULK SMASH".

I still think Cheese builds *should* have a place in MWO, though. And if you have never played Battletech....you need to understand CHEESE has always been part of the rules. Makes it fun to get crazy. Makes it fun to come up with "cheese slicers" (as you humorously put it) of your own.

Edited by Samurai, 13 March 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Bloody Moon]

@OP And this is why decent players complain about dumbed down games.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 13 March 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

I'm still unclear on where the line is drawn between "cheese" and "good build"

[mike29tw]

BlackWidow, on 13 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

These mech do have limitations and weaknesses though. Even though I agree that ECM is WAY in need of a tune-down...it's completely ineffective against laser and ballistic fire.

Saying that ECM doesn't do more than it does means little.

BlackWidow, on 13 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

And people that have to rely on streaks, LRMs or ECM will rarely transcend to higher level of skill needed to master direct fire weapons.

Last time I checked, high level competitive play is still dominated by ECMs and Streaks.

[NitroDev]

Well if I'm going to have a sandwich, sliced cheese is fine. But what if I want pizza or tacos? I'm going to need shredded cheese for that.

[Vladdaimpaler]

Royalewithcheese, on 13 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

I'm still unclear on where the line is drawn between "cheese" and "good build"

Cheese builds: buids that specialize in a specific role. generally winning.

Good builds: substandard builds that bad players make to convince themselves they're having fun and give them an excuse as to why they lose consistently.

What the OP fails to take into account that great players will play "cheese builds" (or as I like to call them standard non stupid builds or SNSBs for short) because there idea of fun is to win the match using whatever advantages they can get, be it a good mech build cap mechanics or teamwork. For the top tier players its about winning however its done doesnt matter as long as the team wins. Its up to the other team to provide the challenge.

[BlackWidow]

Bloody Moon, on 13 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

@OP And this is why decent players complain about dumbed down games.

Not sure how to take this comment. Are you taking the stance that "decent" players have a legitimate gripe because you feel MWO *is* dumbed down? Or is just a comment about "dumbed down" games in general?

Regardless, you either missed the point or just disagree.

If you missed the point, please re-read and or watch the video. If you disagree, I pity your elitist attitude towards what you feel is "your game" cause the everyone else should have to play it your way. In that case, if you want hardcore, might I suggest EVE online or many of the wonderful Korean titles out there.

If i misread *your* post...well, I digress and will move along.

[BlackWidow]

Royalewithcheese, on 13 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

I'm still unclear on where the line is drawn between "cheese" and "good build"

Exactly. As Samurai stated...starting with Battletech, and through EVERY Mechwarrior title...the MechLab is an INTEGRAL part of what *is* BT/MW. And with that comes the ability to MIN/MAX.

Funny, but who is right? Those that hate the HARDPOINT system or those that hate CHEESE builds. Because if I were to go back through old posts and find anyone ranting against BOTH issues....they should be socially ostracized because they are akin to the village *****.

[BlackWidow]

mike29tw, on 13 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Saying that ECM doesn't do more than it does means little.

Say wut?

Quote

Last time I checked, high level competitive play is still dominated by ECMs and Streaks.

That is a valid point I did not consider. But, then I play mostly 4 man and PUG. Not exactly on the high end. This simple answer to this could be...competitive games ALWAYS bring out the MIN-MAXERS.

If you could walk 4 blocks to the market or cut the trip in half by a shortcut through the park (which would be legal) which would you do more often?

If people like to win, they are always going to find the lowest common denominator to do so. I like winning. But I LOVE nasty furballs of Giant Fighting Robots more than anything.

You can even take the mech out of the argument entirely! How many times have you played frozen city where everyone rushed up to the ridge and then stops and waits for the other team to be stupid enough to pop up? Most of the time. Admit it. And it's NOT fun. And people wonder why CHEESE POPTART builds came into existence.

My point is...it's not the cheesy build. It's just people trying to MAXIMIZE their number of wins no matter how much it MINIMIZES the fun. And it NOT NOT NOT "dumbed down" game mechanics. It's Mechwarrior mechanics. Here to stay. Whether you do or not.

[Samurai]

How can someone say mechwarrior is a dumbed down game when so many other complain it has such a hard learning curve?

[Mackman]

BlackWidow, on 13 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

That is a valid point I did not consider. But, then I play mostly 4 man and PUG. Not exactly on the high end. This simple answer to this could be...competitive games ALWAYS bring out the MIN-MAXERS.

If you could walk 4 blocks to the market or cut the trip in half by a shortcut through the park (which would be legal) which would you do more often?

If people like to win, they are always going to find the lowest common denominator to do so. I like winning. But I LOVE nasty furballs of Giant Fighting Robots more than anything.

You can even take the mech out of the argument entirely! How many times have you played frozen city where everyone rushed up to the ridge and then stops and waits for the other team to be stupid enough to pop up? Most of the time. Admit it. And it's NOT fun. And people wonder why CHEESE POPTART builds came into existence.

My point is...it's not the cheesy build. It's just people trying to MAXIMIZE their number of wins no matter how much it MINIMIZES the fun. And it NOT NOT NOT "dumbed down" game mechanics. It's Mechwarrior mechanics. Here to stay. Whether you do or not.

But see, if something is "overpowered" at low, mid, and high levels of play, then that means, without a shadow of a doubt, that it is legitimately overpowered and should be nerfed.

Your argument depends on people being able to defeat it using a more "high-skill" build, but if even the pro's agree that the "easy-mode" mechs are the way to win, then those easy-mode mechs sure as hell should be nerfed.

[BlackWidow]

CYBRN4CR, on 13 March 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Maybe those things just shouldn't lock if beyond max range....

Totally agree

[BlackWidow]

Mackman, on 13 March 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Your argument depends on people being able to defeat it using a more "high-skill" build, but if even the pro's agree that the "easy-mode" mechs are the way to win, then those easy-mode mechs sure as hell should be nerfed.

Sigh...

With a bit more thought, I realize this argument is VERY OLD. In MW2 (Netmech) competition people used LRMs to shoot around corners. In MW3 Medium Laser boats ruled the battlefield.

Now that we are in a TRULY multiplayer MW universe with actual spoils of war to be gained (eventually) that yes....something should be done to nerf the CHEESE builds. The hardpoint system (which I personally LOVE, btw) prevents "all-cheese-everywhere" but obviously there are some exceptions. A1 , 3L..etc. I suspect we will find more down the road. But, look at the K2. It was the original CHEESE mech. (I think it's completely nutz to think you could fit a gauss in that torso) But, they finally adjusted the weapons HP to 3! And I have noticed. i still run a dual gauss or gauss/ERLL K2 and love it. But, I die A LOT (read: A WHOLE LOT) more now due to "ammo explosion" (funny,that) of the rifle getting tagged.

The A1 is easy enough to counter. Just take off the arms. He only gets 40 points there max. Maybe more needs to be done. Streaks really weren't meant to be "guided", it's just how it worked out mechanically.

Now, the Raven 3L.... nerf away my friend. That cheese lovin vulture needs to go away!

[BlackWidow]

Vladdaimpaler, on 13 March 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Cheese builds: buids that specialize in a specific role. generally winning.

Good builds: substandard builds that bad players make to convince themselves they're having fun and give them an excuse as to why they lose consistently.

What the OP fails to take into account that great players will play "cheese builds" (or as I like to call them standard non stupid builds or SNSBs for short) because there idea of fun is to win the match using whatever advantages they can get, be it a good mech build cap mechanics or teamwork. For the top tier players its about winning however its done doesnt matter as long as the team wins. Its up to the other team to provide the challenge.

I do take that into account, but since the ELO I haven't see it as much and my matched have been a lot more balanced, exciting! and fun. But, your statement does sum up that competative gaming nicely. I acknowledge such in an earlier post here. And you are right...it *is* up to the other team to provide the challege. But I stress my point again, if "winning all the time" means using tactics such as sitting with my thumb up my @** behind Frozen City ridge while the other team does the same....good tactic yes.....fun gameplay....not in the very least.

So, for those that winning is the only thing...good luck to you in life and games. I'm just happy to kill and die in a frantic fur ball.

[Slicer]

Wait?!? Someone called for me? Oh... just another thread complaining about cheese.

Well, for people to be this passionate about this game (despite the negativity), is a great sign. It means people care, hopefully we get enough meta game in here that we'll overlook weapon imbalances and just have fun with a game thats been LONG overdue in the making.

[miscreant]

I agree with the OP on certain parts, but the Raven 3L? NOPE.

I consider myself to be a very skilled pilot, but I have always used heavies and assault mechs. It took me a long time to be able to get "Skilled" at using a fast quick mech, the Raven 3L.

I have only recently been able to rule the battlefield with my 3L, but it took a lot of practice. To tell me that it's easy mode is bullcrap, and I take offense to it.

If you can't counter me on the battlefield while I'm in my 3L, then you sir need to rethink your builds.

[TungstenWall]

While for some builds this can be argued, things like the Raven-3L cannot.

COM-2D and 3Ls are both extremely easy to play (compared to other lights) and pack a punch. This does allow unskilled players to play in competitive play. However, these builds also are the BEST light builds, forcing most skilled player sinto playing them as well. Because these two (especially the 3L) are so superior to other lights in ever purpose (scouts, scout hunters, harassers, dogfighters, support) there is no reason to move onto anything else. While a 'Noobtube' may be good thing to have in a game, it should not be end game.

Poptarts are IMO a good cheese as they require skill to line up and hit a target in the time you are out of cover.

Splatcats? IDK. I HATE THEM! They are OP I.W.I.N. buttons in small maps, and they are Useless wastes of mech slots in Big maps. They are just too focused on brawling. I am sure they will be left behind when 12vs12 (big maps only) comes out, so I would not bother nerfing them.

[Deamhan]

Royalewithcheese, on 13 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

I'm still unclear on where the line is drawn between "cheese" and "good build"

Builds that take full advantage of (read: Exploit) the currently unbalanced weapon designs. The benefit vs cost of each weapon class doesn't scale properly. Eg. An SRM6 has a better benefit to cost ratio than the SRM 4. The SRM4 has a better ratio than the SRM2. The SRM2 is rendered obsolete by the SSRM2 because the benefit to cost ratio is better and is arguably on par with the SRM4 or even the SRM6 depending on how accurate the player can be.

Same goes for LRMs especially when AMS is involved where an AMS will eat up a higher % of a salvo, the smaller that salvo is.

Same with the AC20 with regards to the autocannon line. Gauss is a class all its own and has too good of a ratio.

So the more you take, the more it amplifies the imbalance.

Which is why the cheese builds tend to be...

SRM6 - four or more (can be just two if paired with four SRM4s)
(ER)PPC - four or more (just two if paired up with a gauss)
Gauss - Two or more
AC20 - Two or more

Because the benefit that they bring the player is not properly compensated for. There isn't enough sacrifice to properly offset the benefit. The more you bring of something, the greater that gap becomes. So needless to say that you have to boat specific amounts of the top of each weapon class to reach a threashold where the benefit is simply way to far beyond any sacrifice/cost that the risk vs reward value is tossed out the window along with the skill vs reward in most cases.

[DegeneratePervert]

The 3Ls issue is that it dominates every single light mech out there. I recently spent some time leveling up my Death's Knell (oh lord... so bad...) and my three Jenners, and found that even while I was in my Jenner D with twin SRM4s and 4x Medium Lasers, it took an absurd amount of jump-jetting and other trickery to even kill a single 3L if the pilot was halfway decent. This is in opposition to leveling up my 3L, where I pretty much watched Netflix as I played because it was so easy. The 3L is the best light mech, period, and it shouldn't be that way.