550 replies to this topic

[Sifright]

KuruptU4Fun, on 17 March 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Ok, then since you so desire, we'll take this discussion back to the basics.

A weapon that shoots a round that is designed to penetrate weapons grade armor: A/C 2.
A weapon that is designed to shoot a round against unarmored targets: MG's.

An AC round will atomize a soft target if hit with one directly.
A MG round will bounce off an armored target.

lol NOPE.

Battle tech rules dudor

AC/2 2 damage
MG 2 damage

Both of those weapons do that damage to a mech

try again and this time don't lie. You charlatan.

[Xando Parapasu]

Yokaiko, on 17 March 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

IF we went par a MG does the same damage as an AC2.....no one is begging 4DPS.....like an AC2.
Oddly AC2s aren't OP, go figure.

Oh but they are OP. AC2 does the same damage per second as a Gauss. Almost as much damage per second as a AC20! That is ridiculous.

[Yokaiko]

Xando Parapasu, on 17 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Oh but they are OP. AC2 does the same damage per second as a Gauss. Almost as much damage per second as a AC20! That is ridiculous.

Yeah so where are teh AC2 are OP threads?

There aren't any, try a quad AC2 -4X phract and get back to me.

[Xando Parapasu]

Yokaiko, on 17 March 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

So we really have to get into the auto-cannon machine gun thing again.

Lets not, they are the same thing.

No they are not. They are similar but not the same.

Yokaiko, on 17 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yeah so where are teh AC2 are OP threads?

There aren't any, try a quad AC2 -4X phract and get back to me.

When I can afford one I might.

[Deathlike]

I would like to know those who defend MGs, when the last time they were killed by an MG, vs the last time they were killed by a small laser and/or small pulse laser.

That's all you need to know about the state of the MG.

[Sifright]

Xando Parapasu, on 17 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

No they are not. They are similar but not the same.

They really are.

there is no distinction between them that isn't arbitrary.

Machine guns can fire high explosive ammo at pretty much any caliber.

Any auto cannon you care to name could fire a lead balled round.

No meaningful distinction exists.

[Yokaiko]

Xando Parapasu, on 17 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

No they are not. They are similar but not the same.

No they are the same thing. If you are going to split hairs over ammo, a .50cal is a machine gun, it has HE ammo, a CIWIS is a 20mm gattling gun, fires FMJ,....and ALSO happens to be the size NOTED that a mech machine gun is.

Deathlike, on 17 March 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

I would like to know those who defend MGs, when the last time they were killed by an MG, vs the last time they were killed by a small laser and/or small pulse laser.

That's all you need to know about the state of the MG.

Ironically today.

One legged raven that was already red structure. lol

[Xando Parapasu]

Sifright, on 17 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

SL does 10 damage in 10 seconds in mwo (technically 9 due to the way burst damage works)
mg does 4 damage in 10 seconds in mwo

MG must spend all ten seconds with the reticle on the enemy whilst costing a minimum of 1 and half tonnes or three times the weight of the SL

the SL spends 2.25 seconds with target reticle on the enemy mech.

The MG risks ammo explosions

The Small laser has infinite ammo

Double heat sinks allows for 3 SL with infinite ammo firing at max dps constantly at no tonnage cost.

3 mgs weigh at a minimum two and half tones which is a tonne more than the 3 sls whilst doing vastly less damage.

There is no reason for this it makes no sense and is poor game design.

The mg doing less damage than the SL in TT is also poor game design if we are being brutally honest as heat is far less of an issue in TT vs MWO and in TT the mg is far more effective that it is here compared to other weapon systems.



this distinction is utterly arbitrary. There exists 50 caliber machine guns which fire high explosive bullets.

The Gau-8 has an ammunition round which is basically a 30mm bullet.

The type of ammo being fired is utterly irrelevant because as long the projectile is machined to fit the bore of the weapon correctly you could basically fire any type of ammo you wanted to out of it including discarding sabot.

Then make the MG Balanced with the Small laser and SRM2. Why is that wrong?

The GAU-8 has a target round! You miss the part where it has HEAP and other ammo. Not just bullets.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Sifright, on 17 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

lol NOPE.

Battle tech rules dudor

AC/2 2 damage
MG 2 damage

Both of those weapons do that damage to a mech

try again and this time don't lie. You charlatan.

Yeah let's, it's called point of impact(A/C 2)

Compared to a cone of fire (MG)

Yokaiko, on 17 March 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

So we really have to get into the auto-cannon machine gun thing again.

Lets not, they are the same thing.

One of these things is not like the other:

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 17 March 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Team Leader]

Why has there been no dev response on this yet??

[Sifright]

Yokaiko, on 17 March 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

No they are the same thing. If you are going to split hairs over ammo, a .50cal is a machine gun, it has HE ammo, a CIWIS is a 20mm gattling gun, fires FMJ,....and ALSO happens to be the size NOTED that a mech machine gun is.




Ironically today.

One legged raven that was already red structure. lol

dem crit seekers man. totally crited your internal structure

KuruptU4Fun, on 17 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

One of these things is not like the other:

yea it's not a machine gun or an auto cannon.

it's a manually loaded artillery piece that indirectly fires shells at a location. It's a cannon.

You could use it for direct fire with FMJ rounds if the projectiles were machined for the bore correctly. So you once again have 0 point to make.

Team Leader, on 17 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Why has there been no dev response on this yet??

because mgs are working as intended (lol)

[Tickdoff Tank]

The 4AC2 Dakkaphract is a lot of fun but it is not a mech you would take for "serious business". You can get some pretty impressive damage numbers, and the screen shake can really mess up a non-veteran pilot. But there are better weapon systems.

MWO is the *FIRST* Mechwarrior game to make the AC2 worth taking, and I am thrilled with that. I never expected the AC2 to be the best weapon in the game, I am just thrilled that it is actually useful in some situations.

Now if we can just get the MG to the same level of usefulness. (Note: I do not mean that the MG should have the same dps as an AC2, just the same amount of "usefulness", which is a nebulous concept, but I think you can figure out my meaning)

[Terror Teddy]

Team Leader, on 17 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Why has there been no dev response on this yet??

It's in ask the dev nr 34 so on friday with luck.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Sifright, on 17 March 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

They really are.

there is no distinction between them that isn't arbitrary.

Machine guns can fire high explosive ammo at pretty much any caliber.

Any auto cannon you care to name could fire a lead balled round.

No meaningful distinction exists.

Your meaningful distinction is covering the ammo used.

Currently the A/c 2's and the MG only fire solid slug rounds.

Maybe your group should argue for the option of different types of ammo available..

[Sifright]

Tickdoff Tank, on 17 March 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

The 4AC2 Dakkaphract is a lot of fun but it is not a mech you would take for "serious business". You can get some pretty impressive damage numbers, and the screen shake can really mess up a non-veteran pilot. But there are better weapon systems.

MWO is the *FIRST* Mechwarrior game to make the AC2 worth taking, and I am thrilled with that. I never expected the AC2 to be the best weapon in the game, I am just thrilled that it is actually useful in some situations.

Now if we can just get the MG to the same level of usefulness. (Note: I do not mean that the MG should have the same dps as an AC2, just the same amount of "usefulness", which is a nebulous concept, but I think you can figure out my meaning)

Yea, they did a pretty good job with the AC/2 i've used it to pretty great effect on the 4X but it requires very careful placing of the mech in question because you are slow as molasseses in that particular phract.

[Terror Teddy]

KuruptU4Fun, on 17 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Yeah let's, it's called point of impact(A/C 2)

Compared to a cone of fire (MG)


One of these things is not like the other:

Wrong picture. This is more like it:

http://www.navweaps....-76_Gatling.htm

[moneyBURNER]

Sifright, on 17 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Sigh,

no one is suggesting to remove the continuous firing nature.

But it is a downside, A penalty, a con. It does not help.

Increasing the dps above that of the small laser is needed because of this vast downside.

Sigh, I was responding to a suggestion of removing continuous fire.

Continuous fire is a downside in some situations, but beneficial in others, where you can continue applying damage for the full length of time an opportunity presents itself, as when a mech is shut down.

Continuous fire with no heat is hugely advantageous in certain battle situations where enemies have reached their heat threshold and can't retreat to cool down properly.

2 DPS MGs would be a terror on lights/mediums sneaking up on distracted enemies. Imagine a 4MG light being able to fire on the rear armor of a heavy/assault with the DPS of 8 small lasers and no possibility of overheating, and being able to immediately engage any other target.

8 DPS continuously with no heat is kind of ridiculous. 4.8 DPS continuously is reasonable.

[Xando Parapasu]

Sifright, on 17 March 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

They really are.

there is no distinction between them that isn't arbitrary.

Machine guns can fire high explosive ammo at pretty much any caliber.

Any auto cannon you care to name could fire a lead balled round.

No meaningful distinction exists.

GAU-8 Ammo

Quote

[color=#000000]To complete this family of ammunition, GAU-8/A ammunition offers a low-cost target practice round, PGU-15A/B. Used for training applications, this design also has been proven effective in applications against light armor.[/color]

So the GAU-8 "bullet" is used for training and "Light Armor" not killing tanks.

[Sifright]

KuruptU4Fun, on 17 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Your meaningful distinction is covering the ammo used.

Currently the A/c 2's and the MG only fire solid slug rounds.

Maybe your group should argue for the option of different types of ammo available..

So you just admitted you have even less of a point to make given the ablative nature of armour in btech.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Terror Teddy, on 17 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Wrong picture. This is more like it:

http://www.navweaps....-76_Gatling.htm

Thought that would get an argument of "that's a rotary canon or Gatling gun...". Thought it best not to add another facet to the discussion...