550 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

KuruptU4Fun, on 17 March 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

The one point of fact that you missed in your statement Mustrum is the difference between a point of impact weapon and a weapon that has a cone of fire that gets larger the farther you are away from the target.

To "realistically" make the MG's a comparatively viable weapon to the A/C 2 would be to have it deal more damage in that cone of fire than the AC does at it's point of impact.

It's a Big Stompy Robot Game. I say the way to maybe make the MG viable is to increase its DPS by a factor of 2.5-4.

[Sifright]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

It's a Big Stompy Robot Game. I say the way to maybe make the MG viable is to increase its DPS by a factor of 2.5-4.

what do you mean it's a game? It's not real?? ;(

mind blown.

[GoDsiZeSnakEyes]

MGs need some hefty buffing. When ever I see a MG boat I know they must be new to MWO.

Flamers need some love too. I tried boating them on a hunchy with a huge load of HS and the only mech they overheated was mine. 8 flamers blasting a mech at point blank and I overheated before them even with lots of HS for cooling, good for suiciding mabey but that is about it.

[Laserkid]

PGI is turning the MG into a niche weapon. The sole purpose is to wreck internal components and that it does via it internal damage multiplire for each shot and the volume of fire x amount of MGs firing. In this intended role, it excels. I've set off ammo, made "whole" mechs weaponless in my 4 MG + Lpulse Spider. I'm fine with MGs the way they are and do not want to see that a stack of 3 MGs become more effective then and AC2. I still have nightmares of the lag inducing, nastynes of MW3 MG boats

[Yokaiko]

If by niche you mean waste of tonnage.....

[Hedonism Robot]

Flamers need to actually increase the heat in the target you use them on. I think initially the devs tested them with people using STD heatsinks. With double heatsinks being common and the range of a flamer being 60m they can afford to double or triple the ammount of heat generated.

MGs need a 2.5-4x multiplication on dmg with a 2x multiplication in ammo consumption and heat generation. I consider this a conservative buff on both weapons.

[Erasus Magnus]

xhrit, on 14 March 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Except it is not the way it is.

"The Piranha's main threat is its twelve Series XII Rotary Machine Guns. These are a serious threat on such a speedy 'Mech to any foe, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack."

In Tabletop, twelve machineguns are a serious threat to any foe. In MWO, not so much.

imagine the machine gun at 1 dps. that makes the piranha a 12 dps fury! even more with the lasers it boasts.
combined with almost no heat, this mech would shred anything in seconds.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 17 March 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Erasus Magnus, on 17 March 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

imagine the machine gun at 1 dps. that makes the piranha a 12 dps fury! even more with the lasers it boasts.
combined with almost no heat, this mech would shred anything in seconds.

That mech is a Clan mech and will ergo be available at the earliest at the same time as SSRM4 and 6. Those weapons will, under the current mechanics, make anything without missile hardpoints borderline redundant, so a whole 12-dps-can't-defensive-twist-ammo-dependant-90m-range 'beast' will be the least of our worries.

Edit: In all seriousness, a light mech with ten-twelve laser hardpoints would do the same with SLAS, with the advantage of requiring less weight (no ammo) and having cooldown. It's a strawman argument, really. The problem there would be the mech, not the weapon.

Edit 2: A 6-PPC Stalker can one-shot almost anything! Nerf PPC!

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 17 March 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Team Leader]

Erasus Magnus, on 17 March 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

imagine the machine gun at 1 dps. that makes the piranha a 12 dps fury! even more with the lasers it boasts.
combined with almost no heat, this mech would shred anything in seconds.

Well yeah, except it has paper armor because its a light mech, it's probably spreading all it's damage around if its circling you, and it's gonna be extremely restricted by ammo amount. Plus it's a clan mech, and it's also designed to shred anything in seconds. Your point, I see none

[KuruptU4Fun]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

It's a Big Stompy Robot Game. I say the way to maybe make the MG viable is to increase its DPS by a factor of 2.5-4.

As long as that damage severely drops off at a set short distance (IE 150 meters) I have no problem with that...


...Then again, at 150 meters your going to be spreading that damage over everything from the RA to the LA anyways.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 17 March 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Treckin]

Xando Parapasu, on 17 March 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

A modern AC is any rapid firing gun over 20mm firing shells (not bullets).

No, as there is no difference between a "bullet" and a "shell," I dont think you are correct.

If you mean caseless vs. cased, actually many cannons (including the aforementioned GAU8) fire cased rounds.

[moneyBURNER]

Sifright, on 17 March 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

light mechs don't use small laser because they are trash.

Light mechs use medium lasers, SRM4 and nothing in the ballistics department because there isn't any worth taking given their mass or characteristics. I'd like this not to be the case.

8 dps is not very much at all and in your scenario the mech as little to no burst damage meaning they have to sit still to achieve it all.

Every light mech that isn't your particular MG variant features burst damage in the low to high ten+ DPS. allowing

With the burst in the first second being 30-40 damage.

2 DPS mgs would absolutely not be over powered.

Small lasers use to be the preferred boated laser until DHS arrived. Many other factors have since reduced their value further. They can't be boated in quantities that would make <90m confrontations worthwhile on a regular basis.

However, if there was an 8SL light variant, it would definitely have a role to play, and could be an asset more times than a liability.

A 4MG light with 8 DPS would actually be much better than an 8SL light with equivalent DPS, particularly because of its ability to dish out much more damage within a limited window of time, in which lasers would be capped by heat.

8SL has the same heat as 4ML, and that heat quickly becomes a limitation for lights in prolonged skirmishes.

8DPS streamed continuously would especially excel at finishing off damaged sections/cockpits. The burst damage of lasers requires more dicipline in accuracy because of cool downs and the heat penalty, and there's always the luck of being a few points of damage away from destroying a target and not having that final shot be available in time.

Just imagine 2-3 lights with that kind of continuous firepower, able to deliver it non-stop for minutes, which could ravage armor even in a less accurate cone of fire. There is no problem for a decent pilot to stay focused on a target location 70%+ of the time in several-second spurts within 90m at 130kph+.

2DPS/no heat/continuous fire is too good for only 0.5tons plus 1 ton ammo in a group of 4, in a game where range can often be negated, and mechs can be killed in the time it takes for them to react and line up to return fire.

[Alvor]

To summarize if using Canon BT/MW:
The Machine Gun should do 2Damage (Just like the AC/2) with 90m Range & 0.5 or 1 ton ammo lots of 100 or 200.
The Flamer (Maybe fireballs or burst of flame instead of flame thrower style) should do 2Damage with 90m Range & have burn effect on trees/buildings making lasting heat/smoke cover time.

For MWO game “balance” either give the above the same ROF as an AC/2 or have it do 1Damage and shoot 2XROF of AC/2 or any math variable thereof with ROF/Damage that equates to AC/2 overall DPS.


All this information was taken from http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page which is one of the best resources for Battletech information.

FYI TT range is 30m per 1.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun
Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers. Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire, though they are more commonly found on Combat Vehicles and ProtoMechs.^[3] These weapons are much heavier than those typically carried by infantry, but can be used by them when placed on a static mount, where they are called Support Machine Guns.^[4] Battle Armor can also carry machine guns, typically upgraded versions of infantry-support weapons, which can rival their larger vehicular-scale cousins.^[5]
Ammo Handling BattleMechs and vehicles (massing more than 5 tons) allot Machine Gun ammunition in half-ton (100 "round") as well as full ton (200 "round") lots. Powered Armor (of all types, including BattleArmor) and vehicles massing less than 5 tons are alloted ammo in 5 kg lots that are consumed in a single "round" or turn of fire.

Machine Gun
Production information
Type Ballistic (Anti-Infantry)
Tech Base Clan / Inner Sphere(IS)
Year Availability Pre-spaceflight
Technical specifications
Heat 0
Damage 2
Min Range 0
Short Range 1
Medium Range 2
Long Range 3
Tons
Clan = .25
IS = .5
Critical Slots 1
Ammo Per Ton 200


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flamer
Flamer taps into a BattleMech's reactor to produce heat in the form of a plasma release.^[3] An extremely short-ranged weapon, the Flamer is devastating against infantry, however damage done against other 'Mechs and vehicles is negligible, though it can raise the enemy unit's heat levels. The Flamer is also often used to set ambient objects such as trees aflame, making it useful for burning forests or cities in order to slow the enemy down or cover friendly movements. A clear example of such is the Firestarter BattleMech.

Flamer
Production information
Type Energy (Heat-Inducing, Anti-Infantry)
Tech Base Clan / Inner Sphere
Year Availability 2025
Technical specifications
Heat 3
Damage 2
Min Range n/a
Short Range 1
Medium Range 2
Long Range 3
Tons
Clan = 0.5
Inner Sphere = 1
Critical Slots 1
Ammo Per Ton n/a


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/AC-2
Autocannon 2 is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.
Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/2s having an extremely long range at the cost of having a very small damage output.

Autocannon/2
Production information
Type Ballistic (Direct Fire)
Tech Base Inner Sphere
Year Availability 2300 (TH)
Technical specifications
Heat 1
Damage 2
Min Range 4
Short Range 1-8
Medium Range 9-16
Long Range 17-24
Tons 6
Critical Slots 1
Ammo Per Ton 45

Edited by Alvor, 17 March 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Heeden]

@moneyBURNER

with the fast-fire perk a 6 SLas Jenner can have 2 groups of 3 SLas set to chain-fire which should give the same continuous 8 dps as a 4 MG Spider.

Now if you could stick on on extra jump-jets, an extra laser and make it heat-neutral we could test how powerful 2dps MGs would really be.

[moneyBURNER]

Heeden, on 17 March 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

@moneyBURNER

with the fast-fire perk a 6 SLas Jenner can have 2 groups of 3 SLas set to chain-fire which should give the same continuous 8 dps as a 4 MG Spider.

Now if you could stick on on extra jump-jets, an extra laser and make it heat-neutral we could test how powerful 2dps MGs would really be.

8 DPS, available every single second, with no heat, using only 4 MGs. Think about it. Circumstances can be dictated to exploit that capability to greater effect than can a 6SL light that will shortly have to slow its rate of fire to keep cool. And let's not forget that other weapons can be combined with those MGs to make use of the available heat dissipation, whereas dedicated energy boats usually have to equip additional heatsinks to decrease downtime, otherwise lowering the maximum damage possible for the duration of the match.

It's not just about numbers over a single unit of time. You have to look at numbers over different periods of time, in different situations. Matches can be over in minutes, negating ammo limits vs infinite firing capability.

[Sifright]

moneyBURNER, on 17 March 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

8 DPS, available every single second, with no heat, using only 4 MGs. Think about it. Circumstances can be dictated to exploit that capability to greater effect than can a 6SL light that will shortly have to slow its rate of fire to keep cool. And let's not forget that other weapons can be combined with those MGs to make use of the available heat dissipation, whereas dedicated energy boats usually have to equip additional heatsinks to decrease downtime, otherwise lowering the maximum damage possible for the duration of the match.

It's not just about numbers over a single unit of time. You have to look at numbers over different periods of time, in different situations. Matches can be over in minutes, negating ammo limits vs infinite firing capability.

Sigh...

lets be honest here.

does any one ever see small laser using light mechs? No why do you think that is? it's because there is a better weapon for a light mech to use it's called the medium laser.

whats special about the ml?

Scales very well from the SL. Only half a tonne more weight. it has three times the range. Very nearly double the damage at double the heat.

it fires slightly slower overall.

moving from 1 dps to 1.25dps at higher range.

What do we get with a jenner mounting 6 ML?

Upfront damage of 30 by the jenner in the first second of it's firing.

The spider 5k in this time frame gets a grand total of 8 damage assuming hes in range. (he won't be in range)

assuming the jenner aimed for the spiders arm and managed to hit entirely (unlikely) BOOM. half those mgs are gone. Good game spider you managed to get 8 damage out and lost half your weapons in that first second your DoT weapons are useless now because they were blown off before they could do anything.

This is the inherent battle benefit of any weapon that does it's damage upfront in a burst like this. even weapons which are technically better over time end up being worse because they can't front load the damage and remove the enemy mechs ability to deal damage.
You aren't being honest if you don't accept the fact that Damage over time is inherently not as useful as front loaded burst damage.

Edit: This disparity gets worse when you factor in the implication of teams using burst damage to take out mechs rapidly.

it's why Slow fire high damage weapons are universally the best weapons for high level play. it doesn't matter if your overall dps is lower than it could if you can front load your damage because you can kill off an enemy mech before it managed to do ANYTHING which far more important than hurting the next mech a little quicker.

Edited by Sifright, 17 March 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Roland]

People who are afraid like the 4 machine gun spider will somehow become some terrible OP beast are utterly unjustified in their fears.

[General Taskeen]

moneyBURNER, on 17 March 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

8 DPS, available every single second, with no heat, using only 4 MGs.

Then think outside the box, other games already did and gave the MG a cool down.

[Sifright]

General Taskeen, on 17 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Then think outside the box, other games already did and gave the MG a cool down.

Why do people keep arguing 2DPS with out a cool down is better than 2 DPS with a cool down.

It exposes a startling amount of ignorance about how the game works.

2 DPS is literally 2 damage per second.

I could have 4 weapons that do 2 DPS and yet work completely differently. Let me give you some fictive examples.
2 DPS MG

every 0.1 of a second it fires a shot dealing .2 damage.

2 DPS AC/80

every 40 seconds I can fire one shot dealing 80 damage.

2 DPS hyper laser
every 9 seconds I fire a laser with a beam duration of 1 seconds that does 20 damage.

In all of these examples the DPS is the same and yet the clearly better weapon even if we presume that all the weapons have the same range weight and tonnage is the AC/80.

One single accurate hit with it will wipe almost any mech out of the game and then I can go on the run evading the enemy.

Hopefully the above post explains why the lack of cool down is a problem now.

[moneyBURNER]

The value of high-burst/low ROF vs low-burst/high ROF varies depending on the situation.

In a long range standoff, high-burst damage means everything, and heat can be a non-issue when there's lots of time to cool off safely.

In a massive short-range brawl resulting from a quick onrush, continuous low-burst damage can be a lot more efficient and effective in allocating damage to multiple enemies, where instead of wasting the full burst of a weapon to finish off one critically injured section and then waiting for the next shot, damage can be applied more 'granularly' to different sections/mechs.

Not to mention that a miss from a high-burst weapon with a slow cooldown can be catastrophic versus the ability to fire frequently in lower bursts.

Edited by moneyBURNER, 17 March 2013 - 05:39 PM.