57 replies to this topic

[Tice Daurus]

I'm glad they are thinking of a redo of Alpine in terms of the sloping of the map. My only concern of the map is really one thing...caves and/or large tunnels. There needs to be either/or large tunnels or caves incorporated into the map to create underground combat in different areas. If they were to add this into the map, it would make the map a lot more interesting to explore, hide in, create ambushes, and use to move in different directions of the map.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

I think the map is great, the size is wonderful, the issues are on the tech side of things. They needed to have a fog or white out after about 1000m to hid the lack of visible targets shooting at you. LOD is completely messed up on that map.

I can't wait for more large maps, but the LOD issue needs to be fixed! I'm also looking forward to the low gravity maps, the zero atmosphere maps, the lava maps, swamp maps, the deep water maps, the worlds with strange alien looks, and the large format city maps.

[General Taskeen]

Bilbo, on 15 March 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

I think the size is perfect for 12v12.

14v14, 12v12 or 8v8, on large maps, Alpine or even larger, 2x2km maps up to 8x8km maps, are only viable with respawn game modes, to utilize the entire map, rather than being wasted space, with varying different approaches for attacking, counter-attacking, and holding areas. Otherwise they are just poorly balanced with fighting taking place in small area's of approach in a limited time frame. In other words, under-utlized map-space.

Small maps, are balanced towards 15 Minute Matches, with short distances, that work for No Respawn.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Bilbo, on 15 March 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

I think the size is perfect for 12v12.

Indeed it is. However, that size is not yet out. Would be nice though if they split the 3 lances up around the map at the start. I tire of the blob zerg shootouts, which is what happens when everyone starts together in a nice pile rather than scattered by lance groups like they should be.

[CarpetShark]

Besides the silly mountain climbing, the only real problems I have with it are visual. The stretchy sliding texture bug -- which is everywhere on this map thanks to the slopes -- and the hills that don't cast shadows. It's just ridiculous watching my mech's shadow sorrounded by bright light as I'm coming down a hillside.

Since every fight basically happens in E5, Alpine really feels smaller than most other maps in an odd way, too.

[Whompity]

I don't hate Alpine, even with the 2X brawler I usually run. It's not optimal, but I find ways to use the terrain to mug people (usually on mountaintops). I love seeing LOLRMcats skittering down the slope after taking an AC20 and a pair of SRM6's in the back. The mountains are a bit steep, and it would be nice if they'd throw in a few more trees and rocks (like Caustic), as it'd make things less barren but hey:

Alpine: At Least It's Not City Night.

[Und3rSc0re]

I have said since the map first came out that it is a TERRIBLE map. First of all most of the mountain hills are thrown around with next to no strategical thought as why to put them there. It is more of a tech demo map for pgi to show everyone "hey look at how big our maps can get guys!". I bet this is actually the map some guy cooked up to see if it was possible then some head dev said to throw capture points onto it and release it, instead of any kind of balance to the map...

Next terrible map is caustic valley, good god i wonder who thought that map up he must be really new, "guys i got a great idea of a map, its gonna be really hot and i am going to put a giant steaming circle hill spot right in the middle of it, so you either have to go through it or if you have long range weapons poke from the sides of it lul." I really do not mind the heat of the map but just the placement of everything makes it feel horrible. Its like one of our map makers is more of an artist rather than a guy that knows how to make a balanced map. Also no, mirroring a map does not make it balanced it could make it even worse.

Edited by Und3rSc0re, 15 March 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[KinLuu]

The spawns are positioned pretty badly. The upper spawn has a massive advantage, as the poisition overlooking most of the map also overlooks the upper spawn, which makes capping a lot harder.

[PoLaR]

I still love Alpine.

Dessert will probably be pretty epic as well. Can't wait!

[Bilbo]

General Taskeen, on 15 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

14v14, 12v12 or 8v8, on large maps, Alpine or even larger, 2x2km maps up to 8x8km maps, are only viable with respawn game modes, to utilize the entire map, rather than being wasted space, with varying different approaches for attacking, counter-attacking, and holding areas. Otherwise they are just poorly balanced with fighting taking place in small area's of approach in a limited time frame. In other words, under-utlized map-space.

Small maps, are balanced towards 15 Minute Matches, with short distances, that work for No Respawn.

No, the use of tactics other than blob to an area can make use of the entire map, no matter the team size. Respawn is not actually a requirement.

[Pater Mors]

I love Alpine, especially playing a medium support role which is what I like most. It forces much more tactical thinking that something like Frozen City or Forest where you can just stand behind the ridge/boat and dish it out.

Some things that I would definitely like to see added to Alpine are:

Better handling of the slopes, as has been stated.
Randomized starting bases/cap points to create different battles and strategies. That's about my only big gripe with the map in that the battles always take place in the same two locations, rarely do you ever get to fight on the sides of the map.
More personality in the map. Old abandoned buildings, trashed vehicles/mech's, cave systems, weather modes etc.

I'd love for example for one of the capture points to be inside a large cave. It'd be an interesting place to battle and try to take/hold in Conquest.

[M4rtyr]

First time on alpine io loved it... NEW MAP YAY!!!, Big map YAY!!! Open map yay!

Then second match and after... God this map is terrible.

Its great to have an open map since all the others are so conjested. But its far too open, the hills are too far from each other and no cover inbetween means the extreme range weapons rule the map, especially LRM's and ECM if you're team doesn't have those you love conquest period. You can't use any tactics to counter these things. I usually run a 4SP and brawlers are terrible on this map because its so badly one dimentional.

Also it is rather lame how steep the inclines we climb are on this. They need to make the hills more realistic certainly. But most of all as a whole they need to learn how to not make one dimentional maps.

The point of having a large map like Alpine is to have a variety of terrain so you can use different tactics depending on your mech.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Und3rSc0re, on 15 March 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

I have said since the map first came out that it is a TERRIBLE map. First of all most of the mountain hills are thrown around with next to no strategical thought as why to put them there. It is more of a tech demo map for pgi to show everyone "hey look at how big our maps can get guys!". I bet this is actually the map some guy cooked up to see if it was possible then some head dev said to throw capture points onto it and release it, instead of any kind of balance to the map...

Next terrible map is caustic valley, good god i wonder who thought that map up he must be really new, "guys i got a great idea of a map, its gonna be really hot and i am going to put a giant steaming circle hill spot right in the middle of it, so you either have to go through it or if you have long range weapons poke from the sides of it lul." I really do not mind the heat of the map but just the placement of everything makes it feel horrible. Its like one of our map makers is more of an artist rather than a guy that knows how to make a balanced map. Also no, mirroring a map does not make it balanced it could make it even worse.

Funny read. These are my favorite maps lol. I can't help to chuckle though at how you look for logic in the design for MOUNTAINS. Do you look at maps or locations IRL and ask the ground, "wtf were you thinking? this is so inconvenient!" Whine and ramble if you like, but these are great maps. The only issue is the movement up and down the hills in Alpine.

Worse maps are the original ones, since they are too small for much strategy and far too small for proper Conquest; but for some reason, you aren't complaining about those...

M4rtyr, on 15 March 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Its great to have an open map since all the others are so conjested. But its far too open, the hills are too far from each other and no cover inbetween means the extreme range weapons rule the map, especially LRM's and ECM if you're team doesn't have those you love conquest period. You can't use any tactics to counter these things. I usually run a 4SP and brawlers are terrible on this map because its so badly one dimentional.

Extreme range weapons are meant to rule the map. Just how 300m weapons completely rule Frozen City. They are throwing you into maps for one or the other to teach you to get a mixed build. But no one gets the lesson because they are all either full blown ER PPC snipers or 300m shotguns. Love seeing Splatcats on Alpine personally. Great stuff.

[FlipOver]

I have to say, Alpine Peaks is my favorite map so far.

It has everything the mwo game should have, long distance, high peaks, detailed enough scenery and a great strategic background to be used if you get to know the map.

Most of my mechs are close range and this map makes me have to be aware of all its peaks for cover and strategic positioning, which is always a great challenge.

Please, more of these huge maps, I'm tired of getting PPC'd as I get out of my base camp...

[M4rtyr]

Bluten, on 15 March 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Extreme range weapons are meant to rule the map. Just how 300m weapons completely rule Frozen City. They are throwing you into maps for one or the other to teach you to get a mixed build. But no one gets the lesson because they are all either full blown ER PPC snipers or 300m shotguns. Love seeing Splatcats on Alpine personally. Great stuff.

Dude thats my whole point...

They need to stop making one dimentional maps.

Making a mixed build is good, but not all mechs do that, I use canon weapon loadouts for my 4SP and I get punished for it just because of Alpine. Hell even caustic isn't nearly a problem like Alpine is. Actually if I when purly canon with the Hunchie and didn't have speedtweak then it would be totally useless on the map at 64 KPH. So that's going to just punish new players.

You don't make one dimentional maps to prevent boating since boating is part of the mechs in many cases. You give the maps lots of variety and then let the pilots use their brains to get working tactics that are good for their strengths and take advantage of enemy weaknesses. None of the maps we have do this at all. It's either a brawler map or a range map and it takes all the thought out of the game.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

They were already making one dimensional maps. See Frozen City, the map that pops 10x more than Alpine. But hopefully they will eventually allow us to pick which maps we want to drop on. That'd basically solve the problems here.

[M4rtyr]

Bluten, on 15 March 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

They were already making one dimensional maps. See Frozen City, the map that pops 10x more than Alpine. But hopefully they will eventually allow us to pick which maps we want to drop on. That'd basically solve the problems here.

Yes and I said as much... again the point is for them to get away from that and we should tell them as much, by not saying any of them are good maps since they are all so one dimensional.

I don't want to play LRM mechs thanks to the brawler maps and ECM, I get annoyed playing my brawlers on Alpine because they are useless. But I don't play much because the game doesn't hold my attention so I don't have the money for a new mech thats ok for both. Thankfully Alpine doesn't pop much but when its 3 straight and all 3 fights are identical I want nothing to do with it.

[MustrumRidcully]

Serapth, on 14 March 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I hate the map for a number of reasons, mostly technical.


View distance is broken, I can get shot at by invisible mechs sometimes, while other times it will draw the mech I am shooting at, but unfortunately, not the terrain that he is hiding behind.

The physics are arbitrary in this game, but Alpine takes it to new extremes. I can no longer climb the entrance to the cave on Frozen City, but I can walk up an 80 degree slope... until I cant anymore, then I fall pretty much at random.

Its too big for 8v8 or 15 minutes, on top, most of the room is absolutely useless anyways.

It's ugly, pretty boring and has no real character. It felt rushed and meh at best.

The complete lack of cover. No cover but hills, sometimes hills will stop LRMs, other times, even without line of sight and the fact you are running at a 90 degree angle to where you were, you still get hit by the 60+ LRM swarms coming in.

Artemis + LRM splash damage is broken right now, and it shows up worst on Alpine due to the lack of cover.


Frankly, I hate this map.

I agree with the technical problems. The slopes you can walk up and those that you can are inconsistent and seem hard to believe.

It also agree that it seems too big for 15 minute matches. In a way, it's a racing game - trying to get to the enemy team or the capture points as fast as you can before the timer runs out, or so it feels. In conquest, the margin of error is small - if you made the wrong move(s) with the team and one team is significantly faster at a cap point, you will have a hard time catching up. In my experience it's very frustrating if a decision made 5 minutes ago between 300 other decisions done in the mean time bites you in the *** - and you had no way of knowing.
A game can be described as a series of interesting decisions - but if a decision made 5 minutes ago has more weight than follow-up decisions, it devalues the latter ones and overall feels less satisfactory.