16 replies to this topic

[ebea51]

Gday all,
Im sure we are all still quite tired of the cheese rolling around thinking they are real mechs... got me thinkin: 'What would discourage all this cheese?"
Well, to combat the cheese, we have to understand the cheese.
Way I see it, cheese is folk derping it out trying to build the highest alpha damage they possibly can because: 1) theyre lazy cheese, and 2) they cant do math, so they just try and get the biggest alpha damage number in the MechLab that they can.
SOOOOO…
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN… if MechLab also, in conjunction with Alpha Dmg, had a DPS Dmg number? That way the cheese will be split between trying to build Alpha Dmg mechs and DPS Dmg mechs and they still would not have to do any math.
It would also be a useful tool for us real mech pilots that build balanced mechs that have both decent Alpha and DPS damage.

Edited by ebea51, 15 March 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

DPs measures that were more accurate to what we're building would be nice but doubt it gets rid of alpha builds....alphas are what people use to try and put as much damage in one spot as possible in a RT game and that won't change.

[Monky]

Basically, they need to copy the format at Smurfy.

Adjustable sliders, be able to set fire groups, and see sustained vs burst dps all in one slot with a damage/dps over range graph included.

[Kurayami]

This will change nothing. But some additional info in mechlab+grouping etc would be nice for everyone. As for "cheese" builds - there is no cure simply because they are viable builds.

[Roland]

ebea51, on 15 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Gday all,
Im sure we are all still quite tired of the cheese rolling around thinking they are real mechs... got me thinkin: 'What would discourage all this cheese?"
Well, to combat the cheese, we have to understand the cheese.
Way I see it, cheese is folk derping it out trying to build the highest alpha damage they possibly can because: 1) theyre lazy cheese, and 2) they cant do math, so they just try and get the biggest alpha damage number in the MechLab that they can.

I don't believe that high alpha builds are prevalent because their builders cannot do math.

They are prevalent because they are the most effective designs in the game.

Mechwarrior is, and has always been, about high alpha point damage, delivered precisely. DPS is largely a meaningless stat when you go up against decent pilots, because they're not gonna just stand there and let you shoot them for an extended period of time. It's all about being able to deliver a killing blow in the short period of time that your target presents you with the opportunity.

[Parnage Winters]

It's nice how cheese is being used for anything that means good. This is just getting out of hand..

Might as well just give out commando's(stock only because the streak commando is too good) so it's "fair" for everyone. Because if someone kills you in a game it's because they used a cheese build nothing to do with your own ability compared to his...

I haven't seen such a blatant misuse of the term cheese sense I did a 15ish minute timing push and got called a cheesey noob rusher for it in sc2..

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, the whole "cheese build" thing is getting out of hand. Seriously out of hand.

I understand it with regards to the SRM A1 and 6PPC Stalker (despite both having gross weakness, the Splatcat's in particular soon to be even worse with another giant map)... and with the SRM's being proven to be bugged and doing way too much damage.

But really, as Parnage said, it's definitely getting way out of hand.

[Drenzul]

The problem is not the lack of ability to do math, its the ability TO do math....

6 PPC stalker can fire twice before shutting down.

3 alphas of that to the center torso will core an Atlas, 2 will take off a side-torso. (all frontal shots ofc)

Its pretty much that simple. You don't need to expose yourself between shots, if you don't mind over-heating on the 3rd shot you can kill an atlas easily and simply.

This is pretty much a consequence of the high heat capacity vs low heat dissipation which the current system lives in, the only way to get rid of these high alpha builds is simply to reduce the heat capacity of HS and DHS then make them disipate more per second which would encourage the higher DPS, lower alpha builds more.

[Rayah]

ebea51, on 15 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Well, to combat the cheese, we have to understand the cheese.

Or get working flamers... then we can have cheese soup.

[Royalewithcheese]

Fun fact: some of the most effective builds in the game have low alphas. A 3-L has 20-25 alpha. Even a "standard" poptart has 35 alpha.

(Also, OP, if you believe that the most effective build balances alpha and DPS, why worry about dedicated alpha strikers?)

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 15 March 2013 - 05:21 PM.

[Avalios]

Cheese will always be a term bad players toss around like candy because they haven't figured out how to counter it yet like good players have.

[deforce]

your dead, im alive
we won, you lost.

Edited by deforce, 15 March 2013 - 05:40 PM.

[p00k]

Drenzul, on 15 March 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

The problem is not the lack of ability to do math, its the ability TO do math....

6 PPC stalker can fire twice before shutting down.

3 alphas of that to the center torso will core an Atlas, 2 will take off a side-torso. (all frontal shots ofc)

Its pretty much that simple. You don't need to expose yourself between shots, if you don't mind over-heating on the 3rd shot you can kill an atlas easily and simply.

usually. sometimes a few ppc's will magically hit an atlas's side torsos instead even though the target was stationary and shut down. sometimes a few ppc's will magically register as rear torso damage when they should be front. sometimes a few ppc's will magically just not do damage.

anyways, alpha striking is almost always more valuable than dps, for three reasons

1) front loaded damage (per cycle, obviously ballistics/ppcs front load per shot while lasers don't). you don't give the enemy as much time to respond
2) singular aiming effort. line up your shot, fire. you don't have to keep your target in the crosshairs all day while they zigzag, twist, etc
3) self-protection. you can do your damage, then take cover while you cool down, break locks, etc. at the very least you can turn/twist to shield vulnerable areas

of course there's more to "alpha" than just how much damage you do; things like damage spread, projectile speed, etc affect your ability to control where that damage is applied and thus what you do to your target, but compared to dps, alpha has more value in any game that the above 3 points apply.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Roland, on 15 March 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I don't believe that high alpha builds are prevalent because their builders cannot do math.

They are prevalent because they are the most effective designs in the game.

Mechwarrior is, and has always been, about high alpha point damage, delivered precisely. DPS is largely a meaningless stat when you go up against decent pilots, because they're not gonna just stand there and let you shoot them for an extended period of time. It's all about being able to deliver a killing blow in the short period of time that your target presents you with the opportunity.

+2 sandalwood grips

[Mackman]

ebea51, on 15 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Gday all,
Im sure we are all still quite tired of the cheese rolling around thinking they are real mechs...
[More meaningless blathering]

No, but I sure am quite tired of arrogant douchebags who think they're a superior player just because they pilot inferior mechs...

Honestly, I'd be totally fine if PGI took the advice of some on these boards and lowered the overall heat threshold while increasing heat dissipation. It might make for a funner, better game, and it's probably worth trying.

But you? You're just a **** who doesn't like losing, and you're trying to make yourself feel better by calling everyone else stupid.

[Blackadder]

Until they actually change the hardpoint system not much will happen regarding burst damage(alpha strike) Vs damage over time (DPS). Its not a new problem to games and computer games especially have this issue. Since the hit/miss aspect of MW/BT is based on the player, not a game system, the only way to address the alpha strike issues is to limit what types of weapons can be placed in mechs.

[aniviron]

DPS is also not a very good indicator because there are very few situations where you will find yourself firing nonstop with all weapons for very long- generally you're manouvering and trying to aim at your opponent's weaker areas as they manouver, with both of you drifting in and out of cover all the time. My two favourite loadouts are DPS builds (think 4sp stock, but faster + more heatsinks) and for neither would a DPS stat be all that useful.

Also: I don't think this is a case of convergent builds where people just happen to find the same loadouts, I'm guessing that "cheese" (read: effective builds) will continue to be prevalent because when you play and get one hit by a splatcat, you're going to go, "Oh, six srm6, I can make that." and then go do it as well.