62 replies to this topic

[Uller Phrost]

no power creep? clan tech has very little trade off. range is always better, tonnage less, slots less, Heat? double heat sinked engine alone almost covers a crazy build.

[Kittygrinder]

Uller Phrost, on 31 May 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

no power creep? clan tech has very little trade off. range is always better, tonnage less, slots less, Heat? double heat sinked engine alone almost covers a crazy build.

Go look at Clan mech armor and Battle Values. Where youll have A star of clan mechs (5 mechs), you cant easily see a Lance of IS mechs, A lance of Tanks and some battle armor.

The trade that the clanners make is that they field less of the awesomeness they have.

Edit: Also look at a few of their mechs armor values. The Loki is a heavy mech and almost always doesnt have much more armor than some light mechs.

And look at an Uller, one shot from a decent weapon crits it in almost every location.

Edited by Kittygrinder, 31 May 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[Beazle]

Kittygrinder, on 31 May 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

There is no power creep in Battletech. Everything is balanced in its own way.

Clan ERPPC makes this statement an obvious falsehood.

50% damage increase over IS? 50!?!

20 ton clan mechs fitting a weapon that does as much damage as a 15ton IS weapon is the definition of Power Leap.

Edited by Beazle, 31 May 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[Toothman]

Because saying the most powerfull part of the beam doesn't count is dumb.
As is saying little guns can shoot farther than big guns.

I know you have to suspend some reality in games but those two lower everyones IQ daily.

[Kittygrinder]

Beazle, on 31 May 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

Clan ERPPC makes this statement an obvious falsehood.

50% damage increase over IS? 50!?!

20 ton clan mechs fitting a weapon that does as much damage as a 15ton IS weapon is the definition of Power Leap.

Just to make my argument.


Panther 10k - 4/6/4 - ERPPC, SRM4 with artemis. 838 Battlevalue

Ocelot 2 - 6/9/6 - ERPPC, 2x ER Medium Lasers. 2,393 Battlevalue....

Both are 35 ton mechs. Both have similar armor. For the price of the Ocelot i can field almost 3 Panthers. There, my point. Clan mechs get less for more.

[Zyllos]

AikiGhost, on 31 May 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Agreed. The clans in general were just power creeping mary sues anyway. Also its hard to simulate a "-2 to hit per hex" in a FPS style videogame.

It is easy to simulate the "-2 To Hit per Hex" modifier. Sense it does not make sense for the PPC to widly shoot wide from your crosshair, you can lower the amount of damage it deals at these ranges.

[Sassori]

Kittygrinder, on 31 May 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

Just to make my argument.


Panther 10k - 4/6/4 - ERPPC, SRM4 with artemis. 838 Battlevalue

Ocelot 2 - 6/9/6 - ERPPC, 2x ER Medium Lasers. 2,393 Battlevalue....

Both are 35 ton mechs. Both have similar armor. For the price of the Ocelot i can field almost 3 Panthers. There, my point. Clan mechs get less for more.

An Ocelot will probably eat all three panthers for breakfast, at the same time. That's not a very good comparison really.

[William Petersen]

Kittygrinder, on 31 May 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

Just to make my argument.


Panther 10k - 4/6/4 - ERPPC, SRM4 with artemis. 838 Battlevalue

Ocelot 2 - 6/9/6 - ERPPC, 2x ER Medium Lasers. 2,393 Battlevalue....

Both are 35 ton mechs. Both have similar armor. For the price of the Ocelot i can field almost 3 Panthers. There, my point. Clan mechs get less for more.

Did you miss the part where the Ocelot 2 out-ranges and out-paces them, or are you just conveniently ignoring that part?

[Karl Streiger]

Kittygrinder, on 31 May 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

Just to make my argument. Panther 10k - 4/6/4 - ERPPC, SRM4 with artemis. 838 Battlevalue Ocelot 2 - 6/9/6 - ERPPC, 2x ER Medium Lasers. 2,393 Battlevalue.... Both are 35 ton mechs. Both have similar armor. For the price of the Ocelot i can field almost 3 Panthers. There, my point. Clan mechs get less for more.

Ok the Ocelot is more mobile
the ocelot has a weapon that deals 15 dmg
the ocelot has double heatsinks
the ocelot has pulse laser that exeed the range of the panthers SRMs
the Panther has SHS -> heat problems
the Panther has ammunition that can goes up

your comparison is none - next

[Rodney28021]

So what is a IS PPC in MWO going to fire like within minimum range? Does the stream spiral or arc for 90 meters and then straigthen out? Does the computer chime in "Target is in Minimum Range" and does not fire the PPC? How is the minimum range simulated for IS PPC, or does it not have minimum range? Or if i remember the reason for IS PPC minimum range was the chance of damage bouncing back to the user. If you fired a IS PPC at a target at 10meter and hit, the blast would arc back to the user, sorta like chained lightning, causing half damage, disrupting the onboard electronics or shorting out the PPC. Do you have to hit the Field Inhibitor to get the PPC to fire within 90 meters and risk feedback.

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon for PPC

It says "PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.^[6] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."

Edited by Rodney28021, 31 May 2012 - 06:04 AM.

[Kittygrinder]

William Petersen, on 31 May 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Did you miss the part where the Ocelot 2 out-ranges and out-paces them, or are you just conveniently ignoring that part?

First off, no the ocelot doesnt out range it. Clan and IS ERPPC's have the same range.

Second, yes it does out pace the panther.

I grabbed 2 mechs, 1 Clan and 1 IS both with a single ERPPC to make a point. If the Panther was 6/9/6. It would still cost 1400BV at the most, still far less than the Ocelot.

The point im trying to make is that there is no power creep in the game, there are trade offs. The trade off between Clan and IS is clan makes are always more expensive(and sometimes less durable than some IS mechs of less or equal value), so they field less. Thats all im trying to say.

Edit: I took a Panther 10k2(upgrade to the 10k). Raised its speed to 6/9/6, gave it an XL engine, drop an SRM4 and had a half ton for Armor. 983 Battle value.

Edited by Kittygrinder, 31 May 2012 - 06:01 AM.

[CyberCrist]

Personally I don't care if there is a minimum range...I just want to fire one!

[Karl Streiger]

Kittygrinder, on 31 May 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

I grabbed 2 mechs, 1 Clan and 1 IS both with a single ERPPC to make a point. If the Panther was 6/9/6. It would still cost 1400BV at the most, still far less than the Ocelot.

Do you use BattleValue 1? The BV 1 had indeed a problem
With BV 2 the Ocelot 2 has 1700 vs 1200 points on a similar is mech with light fusion
the difference is explained by better heatsinks and higher dmg of the clan weapons

[Kittygrinder]

Karl Streiger, on 31 May 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

Do you use BattleValue 1? The BV 1 had indeed a problem
With BV 2 the Ocelot 2 has 1700 vs 1200 points on a similar is mech with light fusion
the difference is explained by better heatsinks and higher dmg of the clan weapons

Im using megamek to look at the mechs, and about 90% sure it uses BV2.

[Kudzu]

Beazle, on 31 May 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

Clan ERPPC makes this statement an obvious falsehood.

50% damage increase over IS? 50!?!

20 ton clan mechs fitting a weapon that does as much damage as a 15ton IS weapon is the definition of Power Leap.

BV costs
IS PPC: 176
IS ERPPC: 228
Clan ERPPC: 412

[Karl Streiger]

Kudzu, on 31 May 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

BV costs
IS PPC: 176
IS ERPPC: 228
Clan ERPPC: 412

ROFL
Thats funny.
You have a mech that is armored with 30 points at every location - how many hits do you need to tear the armor appart with a IS ERPPC and how many hits do you need with a Clan ERPPC

And i don't want to throw the word head shot -> what may happen when a IS ERPPC hit the head of a mech, what will happen when a CLAN ERPPC hit the cockpit

Edited by Karl Streiger, 31 May 2012 - 06:15 AM.

[Kudzu]

Karl Streiger, on 31 May 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

ROFL
Thats funny.
You have a mech that is armored with 30 points at every location - how many hits do you need to tear the armor appart with a IS ERPPC and how many hits do you need with a Clan ERPPC

Since you can nearly fit two IS ERPPC's (or two and a half regular IS PPC's) for every one Clan ERPPC, I'd say it's pretty even

Quote

And i don't want to throw the word head shot -> what may happen when a IS ERPPC hit the head of a mech, what will happen when a CLAN ERPPC hit the cockpit

Again, two chances to hit the head and possible get a crit vs one chance to get an instant kill, pretty even in the long run.

Edited by Kudzu, 31 May 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[William Petersen]

I didn't realize you meant the ERPPC Panther. Calling it a "Panther 10K" rather than a "PNT-10K" threw me off.

Per Sarnapedia:
Ocelot 2 - This variant removes the active probe, a heat sink, and a half ton of armor to mount an ER PPC in place of the heavy laser. This effectively turns it into less of a skirmisher and more of a sniper.[3][4] BV (1.0) = 1,784[5], BV (2.0) = 1,734[6]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Ocelot 2 is 2393 BV, but you're wrong.

So you get 2 panthers who have slight heat problems and can hardly equalize their movement movement to-hit and to-be-hit modifiers, against a mech who can easily equalize those modifiers and can, in fact, improve them. And like Karl said, you're toting ammo with no CASE, another vulnerability.



So if you want a *real* mech-to-mech comparison, let's reconstruct the Ocelot 2 as an IS Mech with pure IS Tech.

Since Clan Tech is HaxTech, I have to drop a heat sink and a half-ton of armour to make tonnage and critical space for the weapons load; otherwise, the Mech is identical, only swapping clan for IS Tech.

IS Ocelot 2: 1160 (hereafter ISO)
Clan Ocelot 2: 1734 (hereafter CO)

The ISO will be at 5 heat if it jumps 6 and fires all its weapons. It has a maximum damage potential of 20 versus the 29 of the CO. It will die if it loses a side torso, the OC will just have to be careful with jumping and firing.

The CO has roughly 50% more firepower, for roughly 50% more BV, but it is much more sturdy, thanks to Clan XL Engines and to a lesser extent Clan Ferro Fibrous, and it has better heat dissipation (full jump and alpha leaves the CO at 3 heat, the ISO would be at 5 heat [incurring a -1 MP penalty]). Since we're on heat, it bears mentioning, that all heat issues for the CO disappear in depth 1 water, because, since Clan Double Heat Sinks have NO drawback, they can go in legs; IS DHS can't.

Furthermore, as Karl notes, the CO would be able to head-cap the ISO with a single shot; the ISO needs 2.

Kudzu, on 31 May 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Since you can nearly fit two IS ERPPC's (or two and a half regular IS PPC's) for every one Clan ERPPC, I'd say it's pretty even

Again, two chances to hit the head and possible get a crit vs one chance to get an instant kill, pretty even in the long run.

Yeah no.

For the same BV as 57 Clan ERPPCs, you get exactly 103 IS ERPPCs. That's not twice as many; you need to score twice as many hits with IS ERPPCs to head-cap, ergo, for the odds to equalize "in the long run", you need 114 IS ERPPCs. Odds favor the Clan ERPPCs "in the long run" (albeit slightly). And let's not even bring up the fact that you have to pay 721 tons and 206 crits for those PPCs, where the Clan ones come at 342 tons and 114 crits.

[Fortune]

I think when the mwo timeline is at the clan invasion stage, they will make it like raid. You know, pve since if clan is a playble faction, everyone and their mother will try to get clan mechs/weapons since they are clearly superior than the IS. So with clan invasion as raid, they can make the clan mechs/weapons as drops(like salvage). This way they can limit the amount of those op weapons in the player's hand.

[HRR Nighthawk]

Dragon Lady, on 31 May 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Power Creep: A term used to describe when new content added to a game is overpowered compared to what came before. After several cycles of this, new content as become so powerful, the original stuff is so weak, it'll never be used again.

This is what happened in Battletech:

Original Battletech (Technical 3025) everything was well balanced against each other. There was no clearly better weapons systems, and every decision made in 'Mech design was a tradeoff.

Star League ubertech (Technical Readout 2750) introduced the most unbalancing components in the game: the Double Heatsink, the XL engines, and the Gauss Rifle. The DHS created the possibility of laser boating, and removed the heat penalties to ER-energy weapons. The XL engine eased the penalties for choosing a heavier 'Mech. And a Gauss Rifle was a ballistic weapon without the penalties inherant in a ballistic weapon.

Clan Tech (Technical Readout 3050) was Star League ubertech on steroids. The weapons were better, and the penalties fewer. Which would've never been needed if FASA hadn't introduced Star League tech to the game already.

While all this made great fiction, it also turned the Table Top Game from chess to checkers. At least in my opinion.

I still believe that if FASA had never been sued over the images of some of the most iconic mechs in the game, they'd never had a reason to introduce the clans or half of the stuff they did. Always seemed to me that the clans were just an excuse to introduce a bunch of new "iconic" mechs to print on the front of all their products after the Warhammer was gone. Probably wrong in this, but it's just the way it always seemed to me growing up (mind you i start playing the board game in middle school lol)